Labour say transwomen should use the men’s toilet

[Kindersurprising]

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/trans-women-men-toilets-b8gt6l22c?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0BMQABHlJe7BiT-kgvjfusJpz2eq_AUSGDRI9eAMe5VNA0iX6U2qOUk-U0wPhPI98-_aem_Vfuvll1ZYKrZUa-vjh4QSA#Echobox=1745317525

Squeak squeak burrow burrow. Is that a ferret reversing?

Who is denying that there is a group of male people who hold the philosophical belief that they are female when they materially are not?

They are out there in the world. It doesn't mean though that their philosophical belief reflects material reality in any way though.

No male person can ever experience life as a woman. They can only ever experience life as a male person who believes they are a woman.

Even when they 'act' like a woman, they are acting as they believe a 'woman' should act. Which is fucking misogynistic!

Even if they are treated 'as a woman' by some people, they are being treated as a 'male who presents as a woman and believes they are a woman'. Because their every reaction is based on that. Not on them being female in any way.

Even when they have extreme body modifications, it is to be their own concept of what a female looks like to them. It is not what a female is.

How can it be?

The only way a person can experience life as a woman, is to have a female body, formed around the production of large gametes, even if it doesn't produce those and to navigate their life based on the decisions they and society makes that revolve around them having that body.

A male can conceptualise what it might be like to be a female, but that is all it ever is - their concept of being female.

They may do it because they don't feel they fit into how they conceptualise how a male person interacts with the world (ie. their own stereotypes around being male) or they do it because they want to be seen as a female (using their own stereotypes of how a female navigates life). It really doesn't matter though. Their motivation is irrelevant to the outcome. And I consider the outcome can only be described as misogyny.

Which is that they will always be just a male who believes they are something they are objectively not.

How can the material reality be any different? This is why someone's gender is only based on someone's philosophical belief. And philosophical beliefs are fine for people to hold, but not one person in the UK has to comply with another's philosophical belief.

The logic cannot be any different than that I am afraid.

Exactly of course trans women exist - what a silly statement!

I know it’s a seemingly hard concept @Roxietrees but there are:

women
men
trans women (men)
trans men (women)

no need for any other label

Per a Scottish report, 96% of all females have been sexually assaulted or harassed at one point or another.

Your point is? Transwomen are not the victims here. They are members of the oppressor sex class.

Well some trans kids who are entirely harmless and sweet are feeling like shit right now and loads of mumsnetters are jubilant about this.
At the same time equal pay, period poverty, women’s health inequalities, male violence against women, women’s access to education, abortion, contraception etc are still problems the world over.
slow handclap for the feminist victory 🙄

Ridiculous. Labour brought in the GRA to start with and fought every chance to maintain TWAW. Until brave women from FWS got the Supreme Court to explain their own laws to them.

What are they feeling like shit about, exactly?
Being told they can’t actually change sex? Surely this isn’t news to anyone?

Here’s the wild thing, you can care about ALL those things (male violence against women, trans women fall into this category) AND not want biological males in women’s spaces. It’s like women and their wee lady brains can be concerned (and can fight these things) all at the same time. Crazy eh. These are sex based issues. You can’t tackle them if you try and redefine the meaning, so slow hand clap for you.

Plus the judgment just clarified a point in law, that’s all.

Telling a child they’re in the wrong body because they’re gender non conforming (or possibly autistic) is just plain wrong.

How can we fight for womens rights whej we cant define.what a woman is? Or even if a woman can go to a rape crisis centre and expect to be counselled by another woman?

What’s the connection to those other issues? Do you think people who care about single sex spaces haven’t (and aren’t) campaigning and arguing about those too? Not to mention that women’s access to eg scholarships for women is improved by this ruling.
Im really sorry that trans kids feel crap. They were lied to and told that transitioning made them the opposite sex. It never did. They have exactly the same rights they’ve always had and are in exactly the same situation. They can dress and behave however they want. They can choose a new name and pronouns. I’ll use them. But they can’t become the opposite sex.

No. It is actually a rights issue.

The right is to a safe toilet. There is no right for a male person to have access to a female single sex toilet. There are proven reasons why sex segregated toilets exist.

Male people having access to to female single sex toilets was an ADDITIONAL privilege. Because male people who have a particular philosophical belief about their identity ended up with the choice of male toilets AND female toilets under their rights claim. There was never a human right that they access female toilets specifically, if I remember correctly.

Even in the judgement hand down the judge made the point that allow male people access to female single sex spaces gave them additional right of entry over everyone else.

Women do want trans people to be safe. We want female transpeople to have a workable solution for themselves especially. But the reality is that male people with a transgender identity are not a group that feminists really should need to be expending efforts on.

If that group need a separate sex away from other male people, it is not for female people to provide or work for. There was never a general consent for those male people to have access to our female single sex spaces.

Any maintaining of TWAW by a government for the last 14 years has been done by Tories. I’m not saying Labour are better, but they haven’t been worse. And they’ve recognised and welcomed the ruling.

Oh dear.

You'll be unaware of Nancy Kelley's thoughts on this topic then, I presume.

What exactly are trans kids feeling shit about?
Dress how you want.
Call yourself what you want. I will do my best to call you by that name.
You cannot invade womens spaces, though.

So the issue is to teach men to behave with courtesy and intelligence in toilets, instead of expecting women to provide safe haven for other men. Men should sort themselves out.

Women are not obliged to sort out problem men. We have quite enough of our own issues to deal with.

I think many things will need to change now after the Supreme Court judgement, and the Govt minister's announcement is just the start of it. Just one possible example I can think of, re workplaces? (though maybe those with legal knowledge could give a view):

Since last year there is a new duty under the Equality Act, on employers to take 'reasonable steps' to prevent sexual harassment. Now that 'women' have been defined as biological women, employers may need to protect their safe spaces as a reasonable step against harassment (or worse).

Just to be clear I am not saying that trans people are more likely to be offenders; but by allowing them into women's spaces you allow any man in who calls himself trans - which puts women at risk. If there were to be any incidents in an unprotected 'safe space' at work, could the employer be liable?

I wish that your first point was true!

The two best pubs in my town don't have an accessible toilet and in both of them the women's toilets are up steep stairs. Apparently, this is ok because both are listed buildings and it wouldn't be practical for them to install an accessible toilet.

The prefix cis relegates women to a subset of their own sex class in order to make room for a subset of men who say they are women.

We reject cis because the only way to be a woman is to be born one not because we don't understand what you say it means.

I’m not blinded by any ideology. The only reason most of my posts are pro-trans is because all the others aren’t. I believe in equality and HUMAN rights. I never said I supported trans activists suggesting to young gay autistic people that they may be in the wrong body. I know all about this and I don’t agree with it. So it’s BS what you say about being blinded by an ideology. As a lesbian myself it also makes me angry when men “discover” aged 40 they’re trans but want to be “edgy” so wear a skirt but rock a full beard then call themself a lesbian. I find it offensive to my own identify. It’s a total piss take and it’s not the same as a young girl or boy who realises they were born in the wrong body (which tends to happen completely naturally by about the age of 4, and causes great distress)
I’m not a TRA! I told you that. But for some reason the world doesn’t accept people who can see both sides of an argument. If you aren’t staunchly in one camp, people try and put you in the other one. A bit like you said those TRAs tried to put autistic kids in boxes eh? I’ve wasted enough of my night on MN, going to watch MAFs now. So all the other haters hating cos I don’t agree with you, I prob won’t get round to reading any of your replies soooo soz

I reckon a few women in that queue were feeling rather irritated about the trans woman taking up the bra fitter's time.

So much word salad.

They had to. And even last year when KB proposed the equality act should be biological sex Labour fought against it.

Here’s Starmer’s best of

2020: Self-ID and trans women are women
2021: 'Only women have a cervix' is something that should not be said
2022: Vast majority of women don’t have a penis
2023: 99% of women don’t have a penis
2024: Only women have a cervix and a woman is an adult female but making “jokes” about a political leader who doesn’t know the definition of woman is an “anti-trans” joke
2024: The law doesn’t need to be clarified as it’s already clear
2025: A woman is an adult female and I welcome the Supreme Court for giving clarity and now the law is clear

Yep, along with the men hanging about on the couches. That’s so irritating. So all the males then. Funny that.

They had a majority. You can’t blame failures of legislation on Labour. As I’ve said, they weren’t any better, but they seem to have improved things now.

Trans woman I know, lived as female for 20 plus years. Professional person and respected business owner. Employs hundreds. Looks nothing like a man. Do you really expect her to use a men's toilet?