Labour say transwomen should use the men’s toilet

[Kindersurprising]

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/trans-women-men-toilets-b8gt6l22c?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0BMQABHlJe7BiT-kgvjfusJpz2eq_AUSGDRI9eAMe5VNA0iX6U2qOUk-U0wPhPI98-_aem_Vfuvll1ZYKrZUa-vjh4QSA#Echobox=1745317525

Squeak squeak burrow burrow. Is that a ferret reversing?

Then they can accommodate the majority rather than having all of society redefined and turned around to validate a falsehood. It only takes one man in a women's space for it to cease being a women's space and become unusable for women who can't tolerate a mixed sex space.

And that's still no reason for them not to use the gents or a unisex space. If there's so few of them then it's not going to be a problem. If women don't need a space away from men to be safe then why do they?

It shouldn't even need policing.

Surely trans women can follow the law and also have the decency to avoid intruding where they aren't wanted?

I don’t want it policed. I am happy that men will no longer be encouraged to use female only spaces, because no one minds. I mind, and a lot of other women mind. The social contract needs to return. Any man who doesn’t respect women’s boundaries, instant red flag.

We have laws against speeding, with penalties if you get caught doing it. Perhaps you only ever speed in places without cameras, in which case I guess you get away with it. But that doesn't mean it's OK, or that we legalise speeding or remove all speed cameras, and it does mean that you'd better watch out in case a camera gets installed without you noticing.

If you were so certain you'd never get caught speeding no matter what, or if you're so certain nobody ever speeds, why would you care that it's against the law?

Yes. The law has been clarified.

That some men will break the law, is neither here nor there.

Yes, we DO want them to use the men's because transwomen are men. They are MALE. They are complete safe in the males, transwomen themselves and gay males have said the worst they get is a smirk. Why do you care more about the safety of males than females? What about my rights as a rape survivor to not have to see a fully intact male with their penis and testicles (medical data shows 92% of transwomen retain their penis and testicles for life) in our female only single sex spaces, @Indianajet ? What about the rights of female people? Women are NOT HUMAN SHIELDS for a male in a dress. Any male-on-male violence is NOT OUR PROBLEM TO SOLVE! Get off your knees for men. Female spaces are for females only.

I'm going to avoid public loos. Far too much drama.

Too old now to bleed- and have an awesome pelvic floor so can wait til I get home.

So what is your alternative suggestion? That everyone, male or female, use whatever loo/changing room they prefer?

Hang on you said that no one has a problem with trans men in the women’s bathrooms but there are posters on this very thread who prove the opposite.

You are also wrong on the law - the judgment means that trans men can be excluded from women’s facilities if they look sufficiently masculine.

This is all much bigger than toilets

How many is "numerous"?

I have only seen the same handful of examples shared again and again.

But of course the SC determination is great news here, because the more confident women become that trans identifying men are not coming into single sex spaces, the less likely they are to second guess each other.

Yes. So focus on the bigger issues then. Most of this thread is about loos.

I don't know about other countries but in the UK women have never had a problem with other women in female only spaces, no matter what they look like. We are actually a very diverse and tolerant nation. I don't think is likely to change, I think we will just go back to basics where everyone knows and respects the law. It's mostly worked in the past due to this: 'Good men stay out so that bad men stand out'.

So now it's up to transwomen to decide if they are good men or bad men. If they want to campaign for more acceptance in male spaces, or spaces of their own then I am sure that women will support that. Provided they respect our right, in law, to our own single sex spaces.

I have thanks, on this very thread in fact. It's TRAs who suddenly want to pretend its all about toilets.

Keeping women in small boxes. Is that your goal?

I'm afraid biology decided to make women on average smaller. Sorry.

Remarkable that you know so many big, tall women. Statistically very unusual given that the average height of a UK woman is 5'3''.

I have a problem with it. I don't mind trans men coming in of course. What I have a problem with is being able to tell if they are a trans man or a troublemaker.

I'm not the only one who is worried about this either. I've seen many people worried about the same thing. It's ridiculous to pretend it doesn't have the potential to cause danger.

I thought women feeling safe was what we were worried about? Why is it only certain women who get their voices heard?

Why do you think there are numerous examples of cisgender women being harassed in women's bathrooms by people who think they are men, if you genuinely believe it is always possible to tell what someone's biological sex is?

I think I don't believe it.

You're only about the 572nd person to say this on Mumsnet. And it's a lame comment. One, because we can tell the difference. Two, because for years us feminists fought for third spaces. It is trans that rejected it. If they had fought as hard for third spaces as they did systematically shitting on (and with some monuments at the rallies on the weekend, literally urinating on feminist monuments) womens sex-based rights and spaces, they'd have third spaces now and no worries.

Indeed. I’m a tad below 5’10” and know precisely 2 women taller than me (and one is my niece). I don’t know that many even my height, though we are all getting taller on average. My feet are a size 10. My hands are large. I have been accused of being male precisely no times as there’s more to looking female than height and appendage size.

You've been heard, it's why transmen can also be removed from womens spaces, as per the judgement.

If it puts men dressed as women at risk having to share toilets with men, then why doesn’t it put actual women at risk sharing toilets and changing rooms etc with men? Especially when we know trans identified men have (statistically) much higher rates of convictions for sex offences than other men.

It's about so much more than toilets but that seems to be where the most attention has been focused. It's about women have female only spaces be they toilets, changing rooms, refuges, same sex intimate care, single sex wards, the ability to participate in single sex sport, have women only lesbian dating sites etc etc. Unfortunately transwomen and their supporters were sold a lie, that men can become women and we are now dealing with the fallout of their frustration and anger at being told they can't. But at the heart is the protection of those women only spaces, hard fought for and hard won. A friend of mine gave me a really good explanation of why she is so angry about the whole situation "I am a woman in my 50s, I've put up with a lot of s**t dealing with the misogyny, casual and over pushing hard for equality in the hope it would be better for my daughter. Now we are faced with men telling women, once again, how we should feel, how we should act and that it's our job to step aside because we should be kind and if we don't they will be upset. My rights are more important than his feelings"

Hysteria.

Could your internalised misogyny be any more apparent?

I remember a time when women having opinions was called hysteria. We got institutionalised, subjected to torturous medical procedures and lobotomised.

In fact, there were a few signs at the protests calling for it to happen again.

It isn't hysteria to say that we don't want men in our spaces, hospital wards and prisons.

It isn't hysteria when (see image I will share) sexual crimes are committed by trans individuals at a rate higher than any other group of people.

It isn't hysteria when 1 in 4 women are subjected to sexual or violent crimes at the hands of men.

1 in 4.

And yet WE are hysterical and unreasonable?

The UK and Australia have declared violence against women as an epidemic.

Two women are killed by men a week in the UK.

And just because a man decides he is a woman, it doesn't make him so. He is still statistically a danger to us and no one cares about protecting us.

It is the few incredibly brave and heroic women that have stood up for all of us, and it is shameful that so many women are staying silent. Handmaid's for the trans agenda which is basically just another way to strip women of any space where they can exist without a man present.

Have a look at what is going on in Afghanistan. If all women in the UK stayed complacent and silent, we would just keep going backwards.

Men don't give two shits who is in their spaces, because they are far more of a threat to a trans identifying woman than she is to them.

Trans identifying women will be far safer using the facilities for their biological sex.

Wow, you know a lot of unusually tall women. Presumably once your friends spoke it became obvious from their voices that they are female? And once they started walking their female gait would be obvious too.

Unless these unusually large women also coincidentally have male-sounding voices and a gait associated with a male pelvis and limb-length? 🤔

I don't want them to be removed. I want them to use the toilet they're not completely conspicuous in. Which I'm sure they will feel happier with as well.