To find DS4 so bloody annoying

[hoppingandhop]

I feel rotten as he’s only a little kid but he’s such hard work. Here are some examples which I’m not looking for advice on per se, its more to give an idea what life with him is like.

• licking people. He’s started trying to lick my face and his sisters face. We hate it. Tell him to stop and laughs and tries to do it more. Move him away he moves back.
• whines for things all the time, toys, ice cream,
• has taken to shouting. Not saying anything or for any reason like fear or pain just suddenly lets loose with a massive bellow AHHHH. Then stops.

there’s a lot more. He also often doesn’t listen to anything we/I say. Some more examples are

• Pelting off when we were at a park and ignoring me shouting to come back. I ran after him and couldn’t find him for ages. Eventually find him by a pond.
• on holiday we were going down a steep flight of steps with no guard on one side. The wall was on the other. I was holding a baby so couldn’t supervise (he suddenly took off) people above were screaming at me to get him to come back and I’m yelling come back DS but he just … blanks me. It’s like no one’s spoken. This happens a LOT but these were two very dangerous occasions.

its a horrible thing to admit but I just wish I didn’t have him. I hate spending time with him as he’s either annoying, completely not listening (blanking me) or being downright nasty to me and sometimes he is.

I like being a parent to my other child but not him and keep wondering wtf is wrong with me. I’m sure a lot of stuff is him trying to make a connection but when you try more positive ways it doesn’t work.

I haven’t read the whole thread so apologies if this has already been raised, but can he hear? Has his hearing been properly checked? Sometimes the obvious gets overlooked - as a Senco I’ve had to deal with several children who have come with ‘terrible behaviour’ but actually it turned out they couldn’t hear, or only got parts of things. Sometimes they are fine in a quieter setting, but not if competing against specific sounds on specific wavelengths. One lad arrived with us described by his previous school as ‘the worst in the school’. Turned out he was almost completely deaf and he ended up with hearing aids. The transformation was amazing.
The hearing test babies have is just a screen - if later concerns then a proper audiological test needs to be done at hospital. It may be worth getting that done if only to rule it out.

I’m sure he does know. Just at a loss as to what to do at this stage. I am not sure there’s much we can do. He seems fine at nursery, nice little group of friends, no complaints. Then when he’s with me he’s a different character, I can’t even go to soft play as I get complaints abut him hurting other children. Ongoing mystery. I guess this is where the ‘if only’ stuff comes in - if I only had dd I could go to soft play and go to places and not have the sort of situations outlined above.

There are some lovely posts I’ll go back and look at. Thank you. It could be he’s neurodiverse, I don’t know. To an extent I think we kind of bring out the worst in one another.

You’ve got to find a consequence that works, take away screen time, take way favourite toy, take way dessert, take away trip to playground, etc etc, he needs to learn that bad behaviour = consequences.

and please don’t say “bUt NoThInG wOrKs” it’s because you haven’t tried hard enough finding what does work. Don’t give up, you will find something that has him wrapped around your little finger in no time.

Also he is probably playing up to get attention, shower him with praise whenever he is well behaved. Make sure you have special time with him (no siblings involved) at least 15 minutes every day.

It's interesting that he doesn't seem to take after either you or his father in this way? Is is like any aunt or uncle, or one of his grandparents?

He seems fine at nursery, nice little group of friends, no complaints

So he can control his behaviour then, at least to a degree.

he’s still giggling and trying to open the door. The look I got

What I noticed about some some this is that he considers your reaction and his misbehaviour like a game. He doesn't think you're being serious with disciple for some reason, or thinks it's something he can easily ride out. That needs to change. Sympathises because I appreciate this is hard & tiring.

Some characteristics are pretty much genetically ingrained, but his behaviour reminds me a little of a boy my friend told me about. Both parents were career orientated and he'd been placed in daycare at quite a young age, so didn't spend a lot of time with their child, comparatively compared to other children. His mother has always uncomfortable and a bit awkward with him to a degree, didn't really know how to play. Her son picked up on that, and learnt that the most reliable way of getting her undivided attention, to have fun and to play (in a sort of twisted way), was to act up every time they were out together. That may not be you but thought it was worth mentioning.

This happens in other scenarios as well, eg toasting marshmallows at forest playgroup and I was repeatedly telling him to move away from the fire.

I think the fact that you refuse to say what consequences you have put in place is quite telling OP, saying you've "done them all", sounds like yes, you may have done them all but have you done any of them effectively, or given them consistently? And is he aware of what the consequences are?

Any child not listening near a fire (for example), should be given a warning, then removed if he can't listen and participate safely. Telling him something repeatedly while he completely ignores you is pointless, you're just wasting your time and your breath and risking his safety.. and he has somewhere along the way learned that if he ignores you, you ultimately let him get on with it, so he does.. he's not doing that to spite you, he is impulse driven, and unless he has firm boundaries, he will make "wrong" decisions and will push your buttons without realising what affect that is having on you.

The worrying thing here is that you seem to think at 4 he is capable of a normal relationship, saying he takes and never gives is bizarre, he's only 4, you can't expect him to be fully functioning human with adult recognition of his behaviour at that age, it is up to you to teach him effectively, no parent is perfect but it honestly sounds like you've given up?

Oh he’s definitely like his dad. I don’t think I said he wasn’t like either of us? What I said was that neither of us are in the habit of saying things like ‘get out of my way!’

People wHo tYpE like tHiS rarely have anything helpful to say I find. It isn’t remotely witty or amusing and nor is it helpful. I’m having a bad day. Tomorrow will be better I am sure.

Have you tried picture stories or If-Then-else?
Picture stories are almost like a cartoon -so picture of him licking handrail.. next picture germs on the handrail celebrating and running into his mouth.. next picture him feeling sick. etc. Age appropriate pictures not scary ones. This can work on very young children when words are not getting through and it's magic when it does.
If-the-else is good because it's a frame work to explain things he's too young to forsee, so If you run away from me at the park, then I worry and get upset because I love you, else you might fall in the pond and drown.. Or if you say horrible things to someone, then it makes them sad or cross, and it makes them not want to spend lots of time with you.
Some children can work it out, but others need it explained. Understanding social cues and how to react to them might save you and him a world of pain in the next few years.

Not quite @sandyhappypeople . What I mean is more that if you read the books and they tell you how to get a relationship with your child, what to say, how to say it, and you do it and it doesn’t work, then what? That’s kind of a rhetorical question but I suppose we often think ‘child does x I do y solution, sorted.’ But that isn’t it. Like a poster above tells me to just say no firmly. Then what?

@hoppingandhop its not your son, its the phase he is going through. I found 4 yrs a real challenge with all of mine. sailed through the apparently terrible 2s then at 4 just before starting school they were exceptionally hard work. the key I found was actions and consequences. he is old enough to understand this. if you do x then y happens if you do a then b happens. I had a chat with the child before going out to make it clear that for example if they ran off, no treat or if they whinged we would leave wherever we were straightaway and I stuck to it and it was bloody hard work. I did have reins, always with me on the pram and if at any stage of life my children ran off and didnt come back I put them on and made it clear that these were essentially only for babies or for those who act like babies and cant be trusted. along with this, I did give my 4 year olds more trust. so sitting on the park bench letting them walk to the swing themselves or to help with the cooking etc. you just have to stick at it whilst keep saying to yourself that this too will pass.

So he’s at nursery and has friends - that’s a positive and I think by now, nursery would have flagged up any ND presentations if they’re a good nursery with staff who understand SEND.

If he’s hurting others at soft play and gearing his frustration towards you, it could simply be jealousy of his sister. I apparently used to pinch my baby sister whilst she was being fed (I was 2) and as I got older, I would bite and pinch if I got jealous (people playing with my toys etc). It didn’t last long but it was definitely down to jealousy and not understanding the whole new sibling thing.

My child has asd and her behaviour is very much like your son. She goes to special school now. But some of the things they have used have been a game changer. So we have a star chart removal Velcro stars you get stars for good listening, kind hands, talking kindly you can add your own 4 things that need work on. 5 stars you get a reward. The other is an empty jar that you fill with marbles. So every time he tidies up you put marbles in the jar when it’s full you get a treat. You have probs tried similar as I had but this was so much more simple to understand and works they use it in school and use it at home. 70% it’s good. Which is a lot better.

He is doing it for your attention.

Go to:

tnlc.info

Follow their guidance and stick with it for months and years. You will soon cure him.

It’s not as easy as reading advice and putting it into action and getting the desired solution (or not in some cases).

It’s about trying lots of little things - finding things that your son responds to and understands. If he doesn’t hurt other children at nursery but does at soft play, there’s a reason. Either it’s because nursery boundaries work for him or it’s because at soft play when you’re there with him and DD, he sees you with DD and wants you to himself. He knows hurting other children will force you to react and be with him.

Can you go to soft play with just your son and explain to him that you would like some DS and mummy time together. Tell him that sometimes, you need time with just him, like it used to be. Tell him DD also needs you but you enjoy DS time too.

I didn’t realise it was public toilet, so yes, that changes it. Life must be pretty amazing for you if you react like that to everyone’s mistakes.

I looked after a child in a professional capacity, who behaved in exactly the same way. He was never reprimanded or guided by his parents. His siblings were totally different.
he was tested for and diagnosed with ADHD - I’m not suggesting your son
has this but how you describe his behaviour is exactly how this other child behaved.
I hope you can find strategies to help him control his behaviour if possible and make your life happier. 😊
good luck - xx

I know @Verbena17 . I was trying to explain what I meant by relationships being two way.

I do spend time with just him when I can but it inevitably costs a lot as I have to find childcare for the other. Besides, I’m not sure he even remembers a time before DD arrived; she’s two in two months.

When your child is horrible to you, you MUST NOT take it personally.

Children can be very unpleasant, it’s just the way it is for some if them. I went through a long phase of not enjoying being mother to my daughter. But I knew it was my job to love her and be the parent she needed. It wasn’t a case of enjoying it, I had to grit my teeth and get through it. It was my duty - there was no one else who could do it. She’s a lovely adult now.

4yr olds are annoying, I have one. I wonder if you’ll feel similarly about the baby when they turn 4.
I know when my DC became an older sibling, I expected more from them, they had the ability to understand, it’s like they were choosing not to.

I’m not sure what you have tried other than firm no etc from your responses.

But what has worked for us is really rewarding the problematic behaviour.
An example in your situation I would do, would be giving them a star in their star jar when they managed a day of not licking us. Which when full they get xxxx of their choosing.

for example, we went through a difficult stage with going to bed, so whenever they went to bed nicely and stayed in bed all night, in the morning they would get a star!
They would also loose stars, if they did behaviour that wasn’t acceptable!

He's still a toddler at 4. Sounds like you're trying. He can probably sense your pull back from him. Could he have an undiagnosed condition.

I think of you often, OP. I’m sorry you’re still struggling so much. I think there’s a combination here of a quite tricky child and some unresolved emotional issues surrounding your feelings towards DS that you seem to have been dealing with since your DD was born. I know you say you can’t afford counselling and I do understand that, but I do think you need some help here. I imagine you don’t have contact with a HV any more so your GP would be a good first step. I really hope you are able to speak to someone. Lots of posters rightly concerned for your DS, but also it isn’t fair on YOU to carry on this way. It’s no way to live.

So in that case, could you find time at home to be with just him. So if DD goes to bed before him - explain that’s because he’s a big boy now and he can stay up for a bit longer than his sister.

If she is having a nap, you can say ‘DD is having her nap now, so let’s help mummy in the garden’, or ‘let’s make a farm set up whilst DD is having her nap’.

Its tough single parenting when you have a toddler and a 4 yr old but whilst it’s not always possible to not do house chores during nap times, when you can, make him feel like your time is with him at that moment and then explain he needs to play while you make tea or whatever.

If you think you DS might be neurodiverse, speak with his key worker at nursery in the first instance - ask to see their notes, ask how he reacts to them asking him to do something or how he reacts to certain things, such as a lot of loud noises, sensory play, etc. If they flag something, then it’s a good time early on to speak to your GP and ask for some support in moving forward with assessment.

If he’s off to school in September, that might really change things - hopefully in a positive way.

Sounds like he's realised being naughty gets your attention even if it's negative. The way you talk about him is quite sad - finding him annoying, dislike spending time with him, wishing you didn't have him etc and thst will be coming across in your intetactions. Sounds like you need a reset focus on praising the good things he does and less reaction to negative actions.
If he runs off at the park remove him and explain you can't stay there as he's being unsafe. Good luck!

I had similar with DS who is NT but only just. (Borderline ADHD-inattentive).
I had his hearing checked at least 5 times across primary.

'Smart but scattered' was recommended on MN - it helped me a lot.