To find DS4 so bloody annoying

[hoppingandhop]

I feel rotten as he’s only a little kid but he’s such hard work. Here are some examples which I’m not looking for advice on per se, its more to give an idea what life with him is like.

• licking people. He’s started trying to lick my face and his sisters face. We hate it. Tell him to stop and laughs and tries to do it more. Move him away he moves back.
• whines for things all the time, toys, ice cream,
• has taken to shouting. Not saying anything or for any reason like fear or pain just suddenly lets loose with a massive bellow AHHHH. Then stops.

there’s a lot more. He also often doesn’t listen to anything we/I say. Some more examples are

• Pelting off when we were at a park and ignoring me shouting to come back. I ran after him and couldn’t find him for ages. Eventually find him by a pond.
• on holiday we were going down a steep flight of steps with no guard on one side. The wall was on the other. I was holding a baby so couldn’t supervise (he suddenly took off) people above were screaming at me to get him to come back and I’m yelling come back DS but he just … blanks me. It’s like no one’s spoken. This happens a LOT but these were two very dangerous occasions.

its a horrible thing to admit but I just wish I didn’t have him. I hate spending time with him as he’s either annoying, completely not listening (blanking me) or being downright nasty to me and sometimes he is.

I like being a parent to my other child but not him and keep wondering wtf is wrong with me. I’m sure a lot of stuff is him trying to make a connection but when you try more positive ways it doesn’t work.

Sounds really difficult OP, I don’t have any advice sorry, but it’s good you can vent here and I really hope you find a resolution soon, some useful advice on here or he just grows out of it. Good luck.

OP I'm hearing all about how your son is with you but were is his dad in all this? I'm not seeing from your posts and I may have missed it, but what is his dad doing? Is his dad reinforcing the no and the stop etc?

I have a really well behaved 3.5 year old but we have times when he just doesn't listen and it does my head in, it's very hard not to get frustrated and wound up! Don't beat yourself up for feeling so negatively about his behaviour, it's hard ans it must be so difficult for you when it feels constant.

I know you're not looking for advice but we found starting a reward jar woth pom poms really helped to get better listening. When the jar gets full he gets to choose a toy in the shop, we keep it to about £10 so nothing huge. We started rewarding the tiniest things like if he listened to something the first we'd say brilliant that was good listening you can have a pom pom for that. He also gets 1 sweet when he puts one in and its really helped him listen quicker as time has gone on

He sounds a lot like mine at 4yo - later diagnosed with ASD and ADHD.

Not responding to his name / "nobody's home"
Licking (sensory seeking)
Not picking up on social cues that someone's had enough or cross
Not caring (or seeming to care) that someone is getting annoyed until they're actually shouting
Random noise-making (vocal stimming)
Persistent asking for things (dopamine seeking)
Worse when out of routine and away on holiday

I think it would be worth a conversation with nursery to see if any of this is seen in the nursery setting too.

Definitely ask for extra support. There are lots of free parenting courses at the local family hubs based of the age and stage of your child. At this age (as you probably already know) negative behaviour is a form of seeking attention from the parent. A small set amount of time (10 mins even is fine) where you sit down together and allow him to play will make him feel secure and that her can receive attention for positive behaviour not just running off etc. It’s also normal for kids behaviour to go down the pan when a sibling is born as sharing the attention of the parent is a big change. The more you project that you ‘prefer’ the new sibling the more of a negative spiral there will be of him acting up and you disliking him. Remember that having a big brother will be really important for your DD so nurturing close family bonds between all of you will also benefit her.

He isn’t. The step incident happened in July last year. The park a few weeks ago. So in context we went through the whole of August, the entire autumn and winter and then march before he charged off again. I’m not posting saying ‘my child runs off’. It’s ’my Child doesn’t answer me or show any signs of having heard me.’

This happens a lot. So ‘talking to him’ doesn’t work as he shows no signs of having heard.

I've not RTFT but that's all sensory seeking behaviour OP.

I’ve read the posts and there’s a couple of points I thought of.

I don’t think relationships are 2 way when they are 4 or young children. You are their primary attachment. It’s not their job to reciprocate as you are their carer. You’re not seeing the situation clearly here and putting unfair expectations on your child.

also the rejection you’re feeling and insecurity about him hating you- please speak to someone about it eg a counsellor as they’ll help you reframe it and see it differently. It’s really not personal. Also check for depression as you sound really worn down by it all, but seeing your 4 year old as causing this when you are actually in charge and responsible should ring alarm bells.

i see a lot of this behaviour as bids for attention to establish connection. The more you pull away the more insecure they will feel. Until eventually they give up. It’s not their fault you had another baby so now can’t provide the parenting they need.

equally you didn’t know what it would entail either- no way you can until you’re in it. You’ve done some great things here to help connection but also safety wise - yes to rains and pram at an old age like 4 if child isn’t making good decisions yet.
their safety is still your job even if you’re holding a baby. I really hope it improves soon. I know you weren’t looking for advice but perhaps you should consider some of it here.

🙄 no shit!!

I think it's not even the behaviours that you recognise, is it? It's the utterly exhausted, drawn out, despairing tone of a parent who has given it their all and their all has not worked and now they are heading into a very dark place mentally with all kinds of worst fears looming on the horizon.

It's a bit like on Relationships threads when someone will post an utterly bizarre scenario and people seem to "jump straight to" saying the partner is abusive and OP should LTB.

It's not what they are saying, it's the bits between the lines, a kind of vibe.

Something which frustrated me for a while was looking back at old advice I'd had on threads (with parenting) with both DS1 and DS2 and recalling that people had reassured me it was normal, they would grow out of it etc.

The thing is that an occasional tantrum at 4/5 when they are exhausted or have had a big disappointment (or both at once) is unpleasant but normal, and you probably don't need to do anything for them to grow out of it. Having constant arguments and tantrums multiple times every single day over every interaction is NOT normal at that age. At two or three, maybe. But not typical at 4/5. Frequency and intensity matters, and how frequently and competently they are using other approaches to the same situation matters.

Behaviour is developmental IME - yes they might copy inappropriate behaviour, but if it sticks then that's showing you the child hasn't learnt better techniques to approach the situation, so they stick to the one thing which they do know how to do, whether or not it works. With typical development, that means you see the annoying/immature behaviours less and less as they assimilate the more effective skills they are learning. But some children don't pick up the preferred skills as easily, so they are left with options which cause them problems and/or are more difficult for adults to deal with.

In any case, you can't force development by shaming/punishing the immature approach, that might work in the case that they are already proficient at using alternatives, but it won't work well if they are struggling with the more mature approach and it definitely won't work if they don't HAVE the skills to perform the more mature way. Working on the skills will help, but most parents are not child development experts and don't necessarily know how to get there from where their child is now. Speaking to a professional might help if you can get the time with them, and should be done anyway to rule out things like hearing problems, or something like an allergy which might cause stomach pain or congestion. Other than this you're mostly left in the dark, which is frustrating.

You could be describing my grandson… he’s autistic ?

I was having a conversation with one of my offspring earlier, about the habit she had of bolting as a toddler. She remembers it well and said she did it because she got impatient waiting for everyone else to move (she has a twin, and a slightly older sibling). As i had 3 of them and only one pair of eyes i put her on reins, and they worked a treat.

The problem with parenting toddlers is they grow and change so fast - a 'bad' habit, such as bolting or trying to eat stones (other twin 🙄) can appear out of the blue, so i think a lot of those early years are spent firefighting and it can be a stressful time.

I remember feeling 'locked in' to a spell of almost constantly ticking off my stone eating dc, she seemed intent on self destruction at times and could scream for England. I thought i was a pretty zen parent but i really struggled understanding her, and managing her behaviours. She's now in her teens and was diagnosed with autism at around 11.

I'm not saying your son has SEN OP, but i think it would really help you to look for external help & support - your GP (mine was fab), health visitor, Home Start if you have them in your area, a parenting course - something your DH could do too, so you're on the same page, it's important your DS doesn't get mixed messages about his behaviour. I've seen a book recommended on here a few times - The Explosive Child? - not sure if that would be appropriate but possibly worth a look. Good luck.

I second this - it's exactly the type of behaviour I got from my DS (now adult). And it does make parenting extremely difficult, but there are strategies to make it a little easier. Even if you don't want to go down the route of seeking a diagnosis, it might be worth reading up on ASD/ADHD to get some tips.

I would also recommend giving him a little bit of special time with you, on his own, every day - even if it's only 30 minutes. Tell him it's his special time with mummy. It will be good for his self-esteem and it willhelp you rebuild your bond with him. In that time, don't judge what he 'should' be doing, just let him be himself (within safety limits, obviously!).

I notice you said his behaviour has been worse over the holiday weekend, its likely that a change in routine has also unsettled him. Try the visual timetable or even explaining very clearly and often what is happening next and also what you expect of him “ we’re going to the park, I need you to hold mummy’s hand until we get there, if you run off we’ll have to come home” and mean it. Super Nanny keeps popping up on my Instagram, I know many people discredit her but I found her advice great especially when you need to tackle behaviour and establish some boundaries

How old is your little girl OP? I wonder if some of your DS’s behaviour is misplaced jealousy? Did you notice a change in his behaviour after she was born? How does he react to her?

I just want to comment and say that parenting is exhausting and brutal... especially juggling different age kids with different needs. Try not to hate yourself as that won't help you feel better.
It would be worth having a chat with nursery to see if they have any similar concerns about his behaviour - if there is neurodiversity at play, the quicker it can be recognised, the easier it will get as you can work out different ways to approach it and battle it.
Take a deep breath - I really hope it all improves for you xx

My youngest is like this. He's got better in the last year (now 6) but I can only manage him through high engagement. What I mean by that is I don't ever get a mental break and he needs constant engagement.

So standing in a queue, he will need constant games, discussion. "Give me 5 animals that start with p" "how many birds can you see" "If you had to ride a giraffe or a rhino which would you choose" etc etc.

His sibling has ADHD and I suspect he does too. His poor behaviour is always linked to wanting to avoid delay (I want to get there first, I don't want to wait, I want it now now now, look at me now etc)

Neither of my kids were flagged by school/nursery at 4 - when I explicitly asked, they said no. Which is confusing, in hindsight, because both of them were already clearly different from the norm by that age. DS1 was incredibly anxious and struggled to separate from me, I had to drop him off after the other children for a long time after he first started nursery and if I ever went in to nursery for any kind of event, when the other parents left and the other children stayed, he would be inconsolable and I'd have to take him home. However he was bright and motivated and well behaved at nursery.

DS2 is more hyperactive and by 4 they had flagged up that he did not interact with the other children as they would expect and he was also being disruptive and would go into this state (which I now recognise as sensory overwhelm/dysregulation) where he would not listen like he was on his own planet. But when I asked if they thought I should speak to his doctor - oh no no no nothing like that!! Whereas - I live in a country that does developmental checks yearly, and at 4 he was already slightly behind on this. His doctor is laid back so said see what he's like at age 5. By age 5 he was clearly behind and there were much clearer concerns.

I think rather than asking nursery or school if they are concerned, in hindsight it would have been more helpful to ask them what they saw as his strengths and weaknesses relative to other children his age, as this would give you more of a pattern to relate back to the GP/HV, ie if the school says that he struggles with waiting, following instructions, frustration tolerance or whatever.

Honestly I'd get the ball rolling for an ADHD assessment. My dc was 'quirky', 'zoned out', didn't appear to hear although nothing actually wrong with ears/hearing. Nobody flagged it as an issue and it was just them. They had an almost breakdown during A levels. Saw a therapist who told them "well CBT/therapy won't work well for you until your ADHD is treated". To which dc replied "my what now?!". Totally different person now. Kicking myself that I didn't act earlier, could have saved a whole heap of pain.

So yeah, my two penn'orth - even if nursery say everything is ok no harm in getting checked.

I’m really sorry OP but the only person who has any power in this situation is you. You can’t give him back, you can’t give him away. He’s your child, you made him you need to stop being negative and get a plan together ‘I’ve tried everything’ isn’t going to cut it. You need parenting courses, drs possibly is he’s neurodivergent, health visitor, school… but you are the common denominator you have got to step up. I’m really sorry if this sound a bit much but you can’t just emotionally detach he’s 4 he needs his mum not to just give up on him because ‘I’ve tried everything’ that sounds really lame.

Sympathies OP. He just sounds like a typical boy.

Try to make sure he’s never hungry and avoid UPFs where possible. Also lots of sleep.

Is your other child a girl so that you really feel the difference so starkly?

I think the pretending to not hear or not hearing becuase theybare focussed on aomething else is normal. I test my sons hearing from time to time when they have not been listening, by standing across the room and whispering 'would you like a sweetie', funny but they always hear that!
Busy environments and stimulating envirinments, mine seem to lose the capacity to hear me and then focus on the demand, I have to preempt it, so before we went doen the stairs for example, stop and take a moment to explain that we are going down the stairs, thrybare dangerous, they could fall and get very hurt, the expectations are that they walk on the inside, one step at a time, if they run off we will turn around and go home, if I say stop they must stop.
With the toilet situation you can do the same, , we are going into the toiket and we may have to wait, we will not bang on the door, or we go home.
My son ran off once when we got to a lake play area, I had said we were going home if he ran off, he ran off, so we went straight home, even after an hour drive to get there.
I do have bolters, so I didnt go places that are stressful with them. Beaches on my own with two of them are a no go for example.

I'm confused you've said you don't like the child and he doesn't like you. You speaking of a two way relationship with a child? What do you think being a parent means a mutual exchange with a small powerless human. Until they are an adult this is not possible. Do you think your child doesn't know. The environment must be horrible for the child. It sounds like your focusing your own failings on your child. To be honest I think you need to get help for yourself. Your disdain will damage the child. Would you husband consider leaving you taking custody of the child you don't like and you co parent tge baby separately. None of the behaviour you describe is alarming sounds normal. Don't be selfish on this as you are unable or unwilling to treat your child well.

Wow! Your poor child.

editing to add: well it will be poor children. It’s not much fun being the “golden child” either. Comes across to me like you view your children as an extension of your own ego.

@hoppingandhop If you can have money to spare, try Theraplay. It’s a therapeutic approach that will help you to build a better relationship with your son through play. You’ll have an initial assessment, and then a bespoke block of play sessions with a therapist to try and improve things.

If you can’t pay for sessions, it would still be worth reading up on the psychology and approach behind it. Search for theraplay and ‘relationship based play’ on youtube for videos, you will pick up on the general idea and the types of play quite easily, although being guided through it by a professional would be best.