To find DS4 so bloody annoying

[hoppingandhop]

I feel rotten as he’s only a little kid but he’s such hard work. Here are some examples which I’m not looking for advice on per se, its more to give an idea what life with him is like.

• licking people. He’s started trying to lick my face and his sisters face. We hate it. Tell him to stop and laughs and tries to do it more. Move him away he moves back.
• whines for things all the time, toys, ice cream,
• has taken to shouting. Not saying anything or for any reason like fear or pain just suddenly lets loose with a massive bellow AHHHH. Then stops.

there’s a lot more. He also often doesn’t listen to anything we/I say. Some more examples are

• Pelting off when we were at a park and ignoring me shouting to come back. I ran after him and couldn’t find him for ages. Eventually find him by a pond.
• on holiday we were going down a steep flight of steps with no guard on one side. The wall was on the other. I was holding a baby so couldn’t supervise (he suddenly took off) people above were screaming at me to get him to come back and I’m yelling come back DS but he just … blanks me. It’s like no one’s spoken. This happens a LOT but these were two very dangerous occasions.

its a horrible thing to admit but I just wish I didn’t have him. I hate spending time with him as he’s either annoying, completely not listening (blanking me) or being downright nasty to me and sometimes he is.

I like being a parent to my other child but not him and keep wondering wtf is wrong with me. I’m sure a lot of stuff is him trying to make a connection but when you try more positive ways it doesn’t work.

OP, I really feel for you, especially with the running off in the park/downstairs/in dangerous situations. I know it’s v unfashionable, but could you get a set of reins for him so he literally can’t run away? Or one of those leads you put round their wrists to attach them to you? As for his poor behaviour, it sounds as though you need to “catch him being good”. What this means is that you absolutely ignore poor behaviour unless it’s utterly extreme, but if he does something you want him to do - pretty much anything - you praise him for it - “Oh you are walking nicely - I’m so pleased to see that..”. Absolutely anything. Children want you to take notice of them, and they want praise, so give him “good” attention. It won’t change things overnight, but it will improve things over a few weeks. And it’s much easier said than done, but it does work!

I was going to say look at PDA, this all seems very familiar.

@hoppingandhop

I few things you’ve said resonate with me, so I’ll tell you a bit about my situation incase it helps…

• Consequences - positive or negative, did not work, ever. They made things worse.
• Behaviour at nursery / school was fine.
• All of the other kids started pairing off into friendship groups, but my DD was always on the periphery.
• Trips to the park / days out resulted in awful behaviour / me stressed out.
• Started to notice that my younger child was very different - could sit calmly, slept better, could hold a crayon, made friends, was happy and just generally easier.
• Would pick eldest up from nursery and after having a great day there, within half an hour there was a tantrum of some kind.
• Would be very picky about wearing certain clothes - itchy labels, seams, etc
• Couldn’t stop herself from touching certain things - e.g. when baking a cake, would stick her fingers in the mix (your son licking things sounds like sensory seeking behavior)

It was my first child, so I didn’t have a vast experience of young kids. Felt guilty for comparing her to my younger child. Asked for help / advice from professionals and they made me feel guilty for comparing my two kids. Posted on MN many times after yet another screaming match where I’d ended up in tears. Usual answer was firmer boundaries, no screen time, spend more time with her one on one.

Nothing made a difference.

I’d advise you to read up on masking, the fizzy bottle effect, PDA, ADHD.

Maybe your son is just a live wire and he’ll settle down, or maybe there’s something else going on.

My DD is now 17 and it’s obvious she’s neurodivergent - I can’t believe all the signs that were missed early on.

@hoppingandhop argh i feel for you as it can be so difficult parenting a highly active child as well as a baby so don’t beat your self up too much.

I guess a parent will always love their child but there are times when we find it difficult to like them when they are misbehaving all the time.

Is there anything that you like about him? Focus on his positives as I’m sure he has many.

Can you spend a day with just him and no other distractions? Attempt sitting on the floor together colouring, I really find it to be therapeutic and calms down children. You can bond without any mess or sugar,… also a great opportunity to talk! He may just need an opportunity to open up to you.

Good luck with it OP hopefully things improve soon

My son who is 5 does all of the things you listed and he has ADHD, autism and a learning delay. Not saying your son does but might be worth looking into, also get his hearing checked.

I often wake up full of purpose and determination to put it right but other days I’m just drained.

I do remember days like that - often needed time and DH to bounce ideas off to think though what I could change to make the days easier - and sometimes the plans didn't work and even when they did had to implement every day even when tired as if didn't they'd be resistance next day when we tried to go back.

Count downs - daily routins to get out the house - going out at weekends if just for a walk otherwise weekdays be harder to get out the door.

It never occured to me not to try though - even on the really bad days so I would get checked for pnd - as there are treatments that could help.

What helped me was I talked to other parents on here and in RL and tried their suggestions. Behavior charts were a non starter made everything worse with DS but god people kept pushing them at us as if they were some sort of miracle but other suggestions did work and did make life bit easier.

Hi OP this sounds really hard but I think you need to reframe it. He's 4 and using his very 4 y.o. skills to tell you how he's feeling. You are using your adult skills to interpret this. Can i recommend you read this The Book You Wish Your Parents had Read by Phillipa Perry You might find it useful

You have had some really harsh responses but I think it's because people are feeling quite sad for your little boy. I'm sure it's a horrible way for you to feel, but it must be awful for him, because he will be able to sense it.
Some children really are just a lot more "work" to care for than others, one of mine was a runner too. I had to set very clear expectations every single time, "you are going to walk beside me or we will need to get back in the car" and then follow through on that. Things like knocking on the door, if he doesn't stop, you need to physically stop him.
It really does sound like you need some extra support like a parenting course so that you can help him the best way that you can, not because you aren't good parent but just because they might have some different strategies that you haven't yet tried. You are his Mum, so you have to do whatever it takes to fix the relationship.

Unlike the "Mumsnet obsession" of diagnosing all children who show any undesirable behaviour with SEN. Young children run off and misbehave. They need consistent guidance and boundaries from their adults in order to navigate the world. This is the reason a large majority of parents say their children are fine at school/nursery where the expectations and rules are clearly and appropriately explained.

OP in my opinion you need to explain to your son what you expect of him before you do anything and explain the consequence for not doing this.

"We are going to the park/walk and you need to hold my hand. If you don't we will turn around and come home."

Stick to this consequence (no matter how shit it is), be consistent. As for when at home, we used the time out method (I know some parents don't agree with this). 1 min per year of age from age 2. It's tough going but it's the consistency of consequences he can understand.

Here's a link for NHS talking therapies info and how to find services in your area.
https://www.nhs.uk/nhs-services/mental-health-services/find-nhs-talking-therapies-for-anxiety-and-depression/

I think you should get this explored. I don't have boys but I'm shocked by people saying running off in dangerous situations is normal behaviour for the age, no it's bloody not, he's not 2.

My nephew also had terrible behaviour until he got his grommets. Something else to check?

He was in a public toilet and was repeatedly banging on a door while there was a woman trying to go to the toilet.
That is totally unacceptable. I’m amazed that you don't think it’s a problem.

I know previous posters have already mentioned ADHD/ASD but I think you should also look into attachment disorders. A distant primary caregiver can have a huge negative impact on a child's development. You say your bond is a two way street but he is not able to pick up the phone and call the health visitor so you will have to do it. They will be able to signpost you to parenting courses and other help available. There is no shame in accessing help and you need to act now otherwise things will only get worse.

Just remembered something that worked when mine was little. I got really good at anticipating trigger points. Take the toilet situation; I'd have clocked the wait so would have done something before the door banging started.

Pulling faces in the mirror, flicking him with water, asking him who the best ninja turtle was etc. sure, I got judged as a rubbish parent but it was lesser of two evils.

Even now he's a teenager, we still say "match the vibe" before we step into a new place. As an adult I still find some situations unbearable and boring but there's loads of socially acceptable ways to self soothe (hello phone) your son needs your help in difficult situations. He's not intrinsically "bad" or "naughty" he's operating on a less socially sophisticated system.

Take the shouting, the random, annoying shouting. That is something that's probably worked well in a loud, child based environment. Either to socially bond positively or emotionally regulate. He knows it's worked before so he's trying again. Clever, but he needs your help and guidance to match the behaviour to the situation

OP, I really feel for you.
My youngest is a bit of a tear away and can be defiant and say things like ‘I hate you’ and ‘I wish you’d never been born’ but the next day she will be saying ‘you’re the best mummy in the world and hugging me repeatedly so it kind of makes up for it and you take the rough with the smooth, it sounds like you don’t get those lovey moments to counteract the difficult ones.

Ah this sounds really hard - nobody prepares you for the rage you feel as a second time mum. I had what felt like a real aversion to my eldest when my daughter was born. He was also 4. Suddenly he seemed to have doubled in size and all I saw was germs and risk for a little while. We’re a few years in and it’s definitely got easier as the little one has got bigger and less vulnerable.

Give yourself some grace - do you have help and support? My eldest’s relationship with his dad really blossomed when I had my youngest. I had to do a lot of ‘I know you’re still really little and you need me and this is hard for you, but I need to keep you safe and if you can’t do as I ask we need to go home’. And then follow through. I always found when things were tricky that it helped to focus on how little his hands still were and this helped me to connect with him still being tiny and needing his mama.

Could he maybe be neurodivergent? Has school said anything about his behaviour ?

The reason so many of us with additional needs kids jump in to suggest neurodivergence is that we recognise the behaviours from our own experience. Threads such as this, will always attract parents of ND kids.

Posters who don’t have first hand experience of this type of behaviour (because of ND, or otherwise) - are probably not the best people to dish out advice.

Your DS sounds as if he’s “bolting” - which is much more than just running away. The bolter usually doesn’t respond to their name or shouts when they do this. Which is a behaviour that can occur with autism. (I am in no way trying to randomly diagnose - just highlighting)

He also seems to be sensory seeking. Pls do ask nursery for an evaluation - even if it’s just to rule neurodiversity out.

You do realise he's 4? You are attributing adult emotions and behaviour to a 4 year old, only-just-not-a-baby child, who also happens to be your child and your responsibility. It's not up to him to "make an effort" to have a relationship with you. He already has a relationship with you, that of mother and child. And in that relationship, you are most definitely the one who must make an effort because you are not only his mother, you are the adult. Stop making excuses. Take a deep breath and keep going. Parenting is hard, it's also tricky and it's a very, very emotional ride. I'll tell you what it sounds like to me, you've always really, really wanted a daughter. He wasn't that, but he was what you got and you made the most of a bad job. Then you got your daughter and he was sidelined. He's only 4 but he knows he's not as important to you, because kids always do know. I might be wrong here, but I have actually seen this happen in another family and it was so sad. Get some help now. He needs you to. A good first step would be mentioning that you are struggling to the health visitor. They might be able to point you in the right direction at the very least. You do realise that how you handle this will also have implications for how his relationship with his sister develops?

When my kids were younger we would play the game freeze when I couldn't hold everyone's hand (have 3). So let him walk, then shout freeze when he is too far ahead until you reach him. I also found giving the older kid a dolls buggy so that they couldn't go too fast and you could always hear them. It is exhausting when they are that age.

Re the running off. It’s happened twice in a year. He isn’t a habitual bolter. Both times if he’d listened and stopped when I said stop it wouldn’t have been a problem at all. But as it was it was a problem as he just blanked me. This happens in other scenarios as well, eg toasting marshmallows at forest playgroup and I was repeatedly telling him to move away from the fire. No one at home at all. His hearing is fine, it’s been checked quite extensively. But I might get another test. I’m pretty sure he can hear me though, he just doesn’t listen.

If he really is such a flight risk then reins is the only way- especially if you have another little one. No matter what his age if he needs them he needs them. He can ‘earn’ not using them by holding hands, walking nicely etc

And that is the time to try something else until you get something that works.
When my two were little (3 yr gap), on tough days when my DH was on op tour for 6 months for example, by late afternoon I’d be like ‘arghhhh, just go and play - I need to make tea and you’re hanging off my legs!’

So then I realised I needed before that stage, to make a coffee to boost my low energy and pretend that I was being employed as their nanny! Once I took a step back and planned an activity, did some tidying, talked in a much more Disney-style voice, pretended I was being employed to look after them, it made those afternoons sooooo much easier!

They reacted with renewed enthusiasm, as did I! I know it sounds like a strange thing to do but I told friends when they were struggling too and they said it worked really well!

A 4 yr old totally knows (even subconsciously) when you’re worn down and when they’ve worn you down and if you switch that around and become more elevated and fun (even though you’re shattered), they will often respond to it like you’re this new, fun mum they love spending time with and will do as they’re told/asked.

Being able to recognise how you feel and ask for advice is really positive and the first step to changing it around. You should speak to the health visitor about how you feel and ask for support from them. Things may get easier when he starts school, he will have more stimulation and if you're a SAHP you will be better able to focus on the relationship with him as you will have school hours to focus on the younger one and do the stuff that needs doing like housework and shopping. It does sound like he had a lot of energy and is sensory seeking, more physical activity might help, things like trampolines and balance beams.

Hi there OP

i know you didn’t want advice but I couldn’t help but suggest a few things that have worked for us. We have a similar child- impulsive, doesn’t respond like a typical child to instructions. I know how hard it is.

A few ideas:

-deep pressure. Look up deep pressure online. It’s kind of like a massage of the shoulders and arms- putting pressure on the muscles. This can calm the nervous system. If you notice your child behaves like this more outside, take time to do it every 10- 15 mins.

Offer something to squeeze or one of this exercise bands to stretch as this also helps with sensory seeking and regulation. The licking sounds like sensory seeking.

When your child doesn’t listen to verbal instructions use a really exaggerated (you can use a funny/comical tone) to get the attention. Really ham it up and use physical gestures like putting a hand up in front of you or making an exaggerated sad face when he won’t stop licking.

Offer choices between two options.

When walking- hold hands until you can trust him. Playing green light/red light is a good way to get control if he runs away. Red light means stop.

lastly- speak to your health visitor.

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