To find DS4 so bloody annoying

[hoppingandhop]

I feel rotten as he’s only a little kid but he’s such hard work. Here are some examples which I’m not looking for advice on per se, its more to give an idea what life with him is like.

• licking people. He’s started trying to lick my face and his sisters face. We hate it. Tell him to stop and laughs and tries to do it more. Move him away he moves back.
• whines for things all the time, toys, ice cream,
• has taken to shouting. Not saying anything or for any reason like fear or pain just suddenly lets loose with a massive bellow AHHHH. Then stops.

there’s a lot more. He also often doesn’t listen to anything we/I say. Some more examples are

• Pelting off when we were at a park and ignoring me shouting to come back. I ran after him and couldn’t find him for ages. Eventually find him by a pond.
• on holiday we were going down a steep flight of steps with no guard on one side. The wall was on the other. I was holding a baby so couldn’t supervise (he suddenly took off) people above were screaming at me to get him to come back and I’m yelling come back DS but he just … blanks me. It’s like no one’s spoken. This happens a LOT but these were two very dangerous occasions.

its a horrible thing to admit but I just wish I didn’t have him. I hate spending time with him as he’s either annoying, completely not listening (blanking me) or being downright nasty to me and sometimes he is.

I like being a parent to my other child but not him and keep wondering wtf is wrong with me. I’m sure a lot of stuff is him trying to make a connection but when you try more positive ways it doesn’t work.

Not RTFT but can I suggest you speak to your HV/GP? It sounds as though

a) you need support and parenting advice re your DS and a referral vis Social services could facilitate this;
b) you need more input from DH so need to tell him how you feel;
c) you may need counselling (I wonder whether you have issues with your first born because he is a boy, have attachment issues, are struggling with parenting 2 [perhaps feeling unsupported by DH/family]); and
d) that you need DS to perhaps be assessed. He may be ND if attention/impulsivity is also observed in nursery settings or he may simply be feeling displaced by your second child and need some play therapy with a trained child psychologist etc.

The venom (sorry, I can’t think of a better word for the strength of negativity and dislike your posts convey) with which you describe him is really very very concerning and I would urge you to speak to your GP/HV (and DH) asap.

I can understand that - but it was nearly a year ago he is surely very different now -developmentally - he's not 3.5 now.

Also TBH brutally honest expecting a 3.5 year old to always listen isn't great and frankly as the adult you should have manged the danger better - easier said than done with mulitple kids and hindsight is always 20/20 but him not listening was within normal behavior for his age.

If something bad had happened it's not him not listening that would have been to blame but you not managing the situation and danger better. It's a common parental experience - you turn your back slip up for a second and they do something daft that could be dangerous. However they lack the capcity to understand and forsee the danger they rely on us parents to do that - so it's not their fault.

I suspect though you are dwelling and it's badly shaken your confidence in parenting him and taking him out - possibly making you anxious when you do and him playing up more in reponse. You have to remind youself he was fine - both kids are older and you are more experienced - next time you'll do better.

I'd have also suggested practise walking with a wrist strap this last year so he gets used to not ever running off - past that mine held on to pushchair every time - and anyone telling them different was ignore by them and given short shrift by me - meant they stayed closed so I could take all three out on public transport by myself - they also knew the expectation was to stay close and watched each other - not to say still didn't have occasion when DS especially would get exicted at a venue and by off -remionder of the rules and holding a hand rest of the day usually worked.

Firstly i will say after a week on holidays with a 4 year old, it is totally normal to not feel all loved up and Zen with your child. Every parent will have their patience tested, 4 year olds are annoying, they drain you and can be mean and cruel and thoughtless.
This is just a phrase...it will pass and you will find fun in your boy again.

My main piece of advice is when you think negative thoughts about your boy, stop. make yourself stop. Its not helpful to think negatively about him. He just a boy finding his way, all the things you said about his behavior while naughty - they are still normal.

I was in your shoes when my boy was young. I remember a week away with him nearly sent my DH and i to divorce, he was so cross, but it passes and he will grow and learn with your care and love. Everyone deserves love, you need to give it to your boy without conditions.

How exactly would this be possible whilst the one adult there was carrying a baby?

@hoppingandhop Wow, this sounds really tough and I'm so sorry for how you're feeling (which is hardly unusual given the provocation you're experiencing from DS).
I don't have any advice and that's not what you want anyway, but just a couple of questions:

• You say DS is worse when you and DH parent him together - could he be jealous of your relationship with DH?
• Have you ever broken down and cried in front of DS? If so, how has he reacted to you?

Sounds within the bounds of normal to me. He’ll certainly be picking up on the fact that you don’t like him though.

I'd change the way your parenting, ( not a dig ) he sounds ND to me,

You've been parenting him like a neurotypical child and it's not working for either of you. Have a read about ND parenting and try some of them, see if it makes a difference

I struggled with my daughters behaviour for years, looking back it's because I expected her to act and behave a certain way ( like most neurotypical children) and we would both get frustrated when she couldnt/wouldn't

Now I parent her like an ND child she's a completely different girl

Could he be jealous of the babygetting attention?

I was wondering about that. A DC in my family had such strong food sensitivities that they became incredibly disrputive with anything with colourings, flavourings, more than minimal sugar and certainly caffeine if they ever got hold of chocolate or coke. They also later turned out to be celiac. They also were found to have auditory processing differences alongside dyxlexia (standard hearing tests don't pick up auditory processing differences, needs SEN testing). They also needed to eat little and often. If you can find something that helps him feel calmer in his mind and body, then there is space to start repairing your bond. 💐
I'd suggest to start keeping a diary of food, meal times and snacks, sleep, toileting and behaviours to see if you can find any links.

I see others have raised the possibility of neurodivergence and, from my own experience (I have been where you are), I would echo them. Regardless, I do think he might benefit from an assessment by a speech and language therapist, OP, to check his understanding/processing of language. IT could be he doesn't show any of these difficulties at nursery because of the sort of herd mentality there - he can just follow along with what he can see everyone else is doing. Nursery should be able to refer him to SALT, or ask your HV.

We have this too. ND diganosis, auditory processing difficulties, and food sensitivities.

However, I do think my DC is also very wllful. It took me the longest time to cop onto that.

Some of this sounds like normal toddler behaviour, but the “lights off, nobody home” screams neurodiverse (together with other things you’ve identified, inappropriate emotional response is another for example…) as other pps have pointed out. Your sole response to this seems to be that nursery haven’t identified any issues, but they see your son for a fraction of the day & have a whole class of children to contend with - some of whom may have greater or more obvious needs. It’s not uncommon for neurodiverse kids to cope/“mask” at school then come undone at home, because you’re their safe place. Have you ever brought up your specific concerns with a GP or health visitor? He may well be neurotypical but surely it’s worth at least exploring? If he has ASD or ADHD then it could bring a whole new perspective on these behaviours and how you handle them, which in turn could really improve your relationship.

I felt similar when mine were a similar age... i think it's just exhausting and challenging to have 2 that age. To reassure you, he is a lovely boy now and we get on so well. Hang in there and don't beat yourself up

I think you need some support - what you have tried so far has not worked and you sound at breaking point. I would suspect that CAHMS would be a long long wait depending on your area. Would you have the money to try a child psychologist privately? Has he always been like this or did it start at specific point? Sometimes you just need an experts help.

I can't remember the topics covered but years ago there was a programme called House of Tiny Tearaways - there was a child psychologist on there who I thought was great - it was much better than the supernanny type stuff .I am not sure if it is available somewhere still but might help you feel you at least are not alone.

Well then this is just more evidence to take to the GP for a referral then.

ND people, especially autistics might not always respond verbally or they might say something completely unrelated as they have non-linear thinking.

Similarly, PDA children might not respond or respond appropriately as you expecting a response is a demand for emotional and social reciprocity.

On top of that many autistic people might take a while to answer a question as we process information differently, and asking the question multiple times doesn't really help.

Yes there's every chance he's NT, but you won't know if you don't go and ask and only when you know will you get the right information for the support you need.

I would also suggest seeing a private clinical psychologist. I found it much more helpful than the GP or HV.

Sympathies OP. I hope you don't feel too put down upon, plenty of people here on your side.

The thing is, some kids are just rotten toddlers! And they improve massively as they get older.

It does sound like there could be some PDA/hearing issue there too, so worth exploring if/when possible.

Say 'this too shall pass' a lot under your breath. It helps a tiny bit.

What is he doing while you are asking him about lunch and he is ignoring? Kids cant do two things at one. do you just fire the question while he is watching tv/playing/colouring etc or do you get his attention first, i.e. pause the tv, touch his shoulder so he looks at you and focus on you while you ask him? If he still ignores you what do you do? Ask second and third time without getting aggravated? Take the remote and say, while still next to him, ok, have a think and i will wait but we wont put the tv on yet so it doesnt distract you.

all i am saying i dont believe he is so impossible IF he doesnt have any other issues such as adhd etc etc. He doesnt wake up thinking he is going to make your life hell. 4yrs old are not little evils. And if you change your approach it also wont work straight away but i appreciate it is hard to keep going when you try and you dont see results. All kids need different approaches, some kids needs more firmer parents, some kids complete opposite. You will find your way

I sympathize OP, I really do. Some people are so unhelpful and judgemental - it's clear you don't want to feel this way.
I have a 3, nearly 4 year old and recognize some of the behaviours you talk about and they are so, so frustrating. Especially the not listening - it used to be just me that struggled but now dad bears the brunt of this same behavior as well. I get so, so mad sometimes but he really is such a lovely little boy under those behaviours. I love him dearly but oh my goodness, I can totally relate.

I am in discussions now with nursery regarding ADHD, I know other people have suggested neurodivergence to you also.
I have no advice really, just a hand hold.

Only read Ops posts -

1. have you had his hearing checked? Raise with your GP.
2. Slow auditory processing. DD has this. She requires much shorter - ie 2 step - named intructions. Dotn over complicate sentences. If you have to repeat the question make sure you repeat the language exactly. I also tried to make sure I made eye contact or my face was visiable to her whenever I was asking a question. Give lots of additional time to respond as it may take longer for them to locate the right language. Will need a different check but again worth raising with your GP.

Of course he isn’t making my life hell. I’m not trying to be argumentative but you said that, not me. What I am saying is that he’s very difficult to ‘reach.’ Those cosy chats where we agree what went wrong and how we can put it right don’t really work because he doesn’t respond:

Solidarity, OP. I've known a few toddlers/pre-schoolers (it really isn't all of them) like this. I'm going to pm you. It is tough but I think it gets better. Chin up.

Hey OP, I have a 4 year old who started reception last year. I could have written alot of your post myself including the exasperation. I suspect he might have ADHD but again, like you, not severe but suspect he's on that spectrum if you will. It's hard.

I'm not suprised Easter has been difficult because chocolate definitely sends my DS a bit extra. He's like an unwalked dog, absolutley bouncing off the walls with energy, I try to take him out every day on his bike or to the park just to run some of it off as I struggle to be in the house with him all day.

Things that I've found help is getting out of the house every day, always greeting him with a smile and talking like I'm super happy to see him and that just him waking up has improved my day. Gamifying as much as possible like brushing teeth and singing daft songs about it.

Also following through with consequences and sitting down and explaining why everything's happening.

Saying I notice you like throwing water at your sister, why is that? In a questioning rather than accusatory way, or any other repeating behaviour when yoy're both calm. He might open up.

Also I try to avoid matching his energy and getting into a shouting match he does try to push my buttons and wants to get a reaction from me. I just now calmly say if you continue such and such I'm taking away favourite toy for a day (something that won't fuck me over too like stopping an activity and threatening to go home) and he can earn it back. (Don't get me wrong I still fuck up and end up shouting at him sometimes but it just escalates a shit situation)

Now he's coming up to 5 I think he's getting easier and school has helped (although dreading transition to year 1) he had LOTS of trouble in first term of reception, getting into loads of trouble at school, being very naughty, not listening and the first parent teacher session felt like I was getting a massive bollocking. Felt like we had to prove we were engaged parents, that try to implement consequences, feed healthily and interact with our DS, that weren't dragging up our child. However second term something clicked and he's doing much better at school and at home. (We did move house shortly before school started so lots of change probably similar to you having a new baby)

He has been flagged to the SENCO now at school but only as a "he's on the radar" sort of way. I would speak to any potential school first about your concerns and make sure you choose a school with a good senco provision just in case.

If it makes you feel better mine used to spit in my face when he was 3 and it was so hard not to lose my rag. 😭 Thankfully that's stopped. Sending massive hugs OP. I think it will get better when he's older, you're in the trenches now with 2 preschoolers.

What I am saying is that he’s very difficult to ‘reach.’

I remember a deputy head saying this to me about DS and me nodding think yes finally someone else gets it after a near full school year of being constantly suggested it was my parenting.

I found early school years worst as Dsis is finding depsite school knowing strong family history of SEN and ND - newphew on NHS waiting list for diagnosis. I'd say Dsis and I were actually very good at managing the behavior - but any problems at school were still balmed on parenting.

Later years it was much easier - but I would suggest looking at or talking to nursury about possible causes and extra support now.

Those cosy chats where we agree what went wrong and how we can put it right don’t really work because he doesn’t respond:

Also 4 year old have zero insight into their behavior or why they are doing things - so plans on how to do better at that age - managing situations or anticipating problems and heading do need to be imposed by adults as do rotines and constant same expectations like always hold hands.
So tell them the plan and what you expect get them to agree but expect to have to remind constantly.

Cosy chats don't work because he's 4. Quite a lot of what you describe could 'just' be being 4.

I agree with PPs that you need to consider what he is trying to communicate to you through his behaviour.