To find DS4 so bloody annoying

[hoppingandhop]

I feel rotten as he’s only a little kid but he’s such hard work. Here are some examples which I’m not looking for advice on per se, its more to give an idea what life with him is like.

• licking people. He’s started trying to lick my face and his sisters face. We hate it. Tell him to stop and laughs and tries to do it more. Move him away he moves back.
• whines for things all the time, toys, ice cream,
• has taken to shouting. Not saying anything or for any reason like fear or pain just suddenly lets loose with a massive bellow AHHHH. Then stops.

there’s a lot more. He also often doesn’t listen to anything we/I say. Some more examples are

• Pelting off when we were at a park and ignoring me shouting to come back. I ran after him and couldn’t find him for ages. Eventually find him by a pond.
• on holiday we were going down a steep flight of steps with no guard on one side. The wall was on the other. I was holding a baby so couldn’t supervise (he suddenly took off) people above were screaming at me to get him to come back and I’m yelling come back DS but he just … blanks me. It’s like no one’s spoken. This happens a LOT but these were two very dangerous occasions.

its a horrible thing to admit but I just wish I didn’t have him. I hate spending time with him as he’s either annoying, completely not listening (blanking me) or being downright nasty to me and sometimes he is.

I like being a parent to my other child but not him and keep wondering wtf is wrong with me. I’m sure a lot of stuff is him trying to make a connection but when you try more positive ways it doesn’t work.

That sounds really hard OP and you sound like you've had enough. I know you don't think it is neurodiversity but some of his behaviour does remind me of my son at that age, and he is autistic. Especially the not wanting to please you amd not coping woth being out of routine. I would try praising him for every tiny little thing he does right amd doing what PP suggests about saying 'I'm so glad you can do things that the baby can't ' . If the latter doesn't have any effect, that would make me think autism.
Even now in his teens, it would not occur to my son to do something that he doesn't want to do because it would make me or his Dad happy. His brain just doesn't work like that.

Probably novelty factor @Obvnotthegolden . Both children adored me until they were around two then started acting like DH was the messiah! I don’t take it personally. He is more permissive than me and that’s probably because he’s a bit like a grandparent in some ways, the bad behaviour doesn’t affect him as directly.

I'm not familiar with the books, so I couldn't really comment on that, only to say I don't think it sounds particularly helpful to be honest, I think the relationship with your child would come more naturally if you have a better foundation for it, saying words and expecting a textbook response from a small child who has parent specific behavioral issues is never really going to work surely?

I've got a four year old, it really can be challenging, but things like saying 'get out of my way' is perfectly normal.. they don't really have the capacity to consider how the bluntness of that makes you feel, the need to get over 'there' and you're in their way, so their solution is to tell you to move, the key thing is to not move, or to stop them in their tracks.. if you move or allow them past then you have taught them that rude bossy behaviour works, when really it should be corrected 'that's rude, if you want to get past you need to say excuse me, would you like to try again?'.

I will not tolerate my DD bossing me in any way, so I pull her up every time, we're going through the I WANT phase right now, she doesn't mean anything by it, it's just the quickest way of asking for things, I don't get mad or annoyed, but I correct her every time on that too, I never give her anything that she demands unless she rephrases her question with manners. Honestly, it is bloody exhausting, and I get sick of the sound of my own voice sometimes, but IMO it is so important to set the foundation of respect, and teaching effective consequences. Interestingly enough, her dad (we all live together) is more lax on what he tolerates and he struggles with her not listening to him quite a lot, but it is down to his 'I just want an easy life' parenting style.. he doesn't seem to realise that minimum effort equals minimum reward.

With you saying, 'what then' after saying no firmly, that is what you need to figure out, but whatever it is it needs to be effective and consistent, my biggest change last year was actually 'collecting her' if she doesn't listen, I ask her to do something, give her one more chance then I go and take her hand, I don't ever pull her, but I stand there and say 'come on we need to do x,y,z' and I won't let go of her hand until she does what I need her to.. she knows at that point she can't carry on with whatever she was doing anyway and she comes and does what I need her to, I read it somewhere and I was genuinely amazed how well it worked, now I rarely have to go and get her, as she usually comes on the first or second chance, but I never ever repeat myself three times as it defeats the purpose of what she has been taught, I was finding myself getting angry at her and frustrated and then feeling guilty, then that one tiny change eliminated all that completely.

@CarterBeatsTheDevil yeah so many friends say the same. And the other day I got a bit frustrated and told him I was feeling a bit annoyed as he wasn’t listening and it was very annoying and a mum in the next changing cubicle said ‘solidarity!’ So it isn’t just us. I probably need to get it in perspective a bit more.

One of the issues is that it is quite personal. He can be really nasty and will say things like ‘get out of my way’ in a sort of ‘growl’ or scream at me @hoppingandhop

See I don't think this is "personal". Personal would be saying something specifically nasty about you.
I'm not arguing with you for the sake of it, but to try and help you see that his behaviour isn't personal, to help you zoom out without the emotional strain of feeling personally attacked so you can tackle it differently.

Op just to add I'm getting the impression English might be your second language the reason I'm saying that is not to make a dig SAME HERE. One if the problems my cousin faced was that the translation into English made what she was saying 10 times worse to the English ear ( Hungarian amd proud :) if you do have a diffrent home language finding someone who you can talk to will help xxxxx love from me to you.

He isn’t. The step incident happened in July last year. The park a few weeks ago. So in context we went through the whole of August, the entire autumn and winter and then march before he charged off again. I’m not posting saying ‘my child runs off’. It’s ’my Child doesn’t answer me or show any signs of having heard me.’

So he was three and half with steps incident and last week he ran off in the park at 4.5.

This age 6 months is a huge amount of change so why the are you so hung up on the step incident a year ago?

I went with shit happens - we all alright (thank god at times ) -I'll strive to do better tommorow.

My Mum always struggled to take us out - not because we were badly behaved - we were considered extremely well behaved by others - but fear of being judged by others.

It was a definite feature of their parenting focusing on the negative - incidents from years ago dragged up again and again. I think it robbered her of a lot of joy. Actually her older two do have SEN youngest much favoured doesn't though her kids do - and she like Dsis and I encountered a lot of judgement at school gates with that - but the fear of being judged was from the off with her before problems were apparent.

Running off happens - if he wasn't listening near fire then I'd have phycially moved him - and did on similar occasions with my kids. They need reminders to stay close that age especially in exciting new environments.

Two year age gap is hard - also seem to invite comparisons which aren't fair - at least that what I found with our two and wider family with that- kids are unquie they do things in their own time and for many when there is SEN it's a marthon not a sprint - it's getting there in the end what matters.

I don't know if there are real concerns with him - but I think your perception of what he should be doing is slightly off.

Replying out of context might be because he’s taking longer to process something. He might be trying to script words for something you said 5 mins ago and you’ve since said something else he is trying to process alongside.

I know you say you don’t think he is neurodiverse, however from everything you say, as a parent of a child with Autism and another with adhd, I wouldn’t rule it out.

That said, I think before anything else, I really think finding some support for your own mental health sounds like it might be more important. Feeling like you’re spread too thinly, not feeling on the same wave length as your DS, feeling deflated by the normal toddler stuff etc. There are loads of people/charities who you could get support from if you think that might be useful or relevant to your situation.

Maybe your ds feels safer with more boundaries rather than the permissiveness of your DH, which would make sense as to why he is better henaved at nursery as well.

He might be feeling insecure and unsure when your DH is around, but obviously doesn't know how to express this except to be mean to you!

I would look at auditory processing disorder.

Though I found - asking them to say back to me what I had just said helped a lot.

What did I just say - What did I ask you - sometimes making sure they were looking at me - sometime touching them to be sure - extra time to work out what I said and for me to be sure they had heard me.

Even now in his teens, it would not occur to my son to do something that he doesn't want to do because it would make me or his Dad happy. His brain just doesn't work like that.

God, yes, @Spanglemum02, I can relate to this! Saying to my autistic DS, 'Please do it for me' is absolutely the worst thing I could do. It makes him absolutely furious, and he just doesn't get why on earth someone might want to do something for someone else. He is in many ways very considerate, but he cannot get his head round this.

I have focused on those two incidents because they are when the not listening could have been very dangerous. I still feel a bit sick at the ‘steps’ incident to be honest, it sometimes still haunts me. There was a sheer drop onto concrete. It would have been fine if he’d responded to my ‘DS, come here!’ But he ignored me and carried on. I swear I have PTSD from that.

I think you either need to seek a hearing test or a referral for an autism screening or both. Because this can be autistic behaviour.

It may be that he doesn't have the social understanding to realise that he needs to answer the question, or that he can't draw himself away from what he's doing or thinking about to do so, and then the demand to do that feels absolutely unreasonable. He also might have slower auditory processing - how long to you give him to answer questions? Try giving a full ten seconds (longer than you think), then ask again in exactly the same words. I still have to make myself say, "DS" and then wait until he gives me a tiny indication he's heard before actually asking a question; sometimes I need to touch his shoulder. (And it's frustrating behaviour even when you know a child can't help it.)

The out of context responses can be a sign, too. Either because he struggles to understand the question about feelings, so he reflects, or because he's not aware of the convention of staying on topic.

I do also believe that children are their worst with and to the people they feel safest with. You probably are his favourite person.

Same it's funny reading the posts of NT mums it's like getting insight to my own poor mothers challenges with me. There's no way I'm doing something just because you want me to if the thing you want is illogical to me. But I'm okay she's okay were okay.

I honestly wouldn't wait for the nursery to comment or advise you on any kind of neurodiverse issues. Not saying it's not a great nursery it could well be, however, they have so many children to keep an eye on at such young ages. Not everything is always picked up on. It certainly wasn't with my children in nursery!

We had to go about getting the paperwork ourselves and getting them on the waiting list or assessments.

Although I'm not saying this is the case.
however if your child happens to be autistic/ It becomes a whole different kind of ball game when it comes to discipline and explaining things to them in ways they can understand depending on the severity.

I have three children, two of them with ADHD. Autism. And both of them are completely different to each other.

Maybe it's time to seriously consider getting him assessed and getting some real support because believe me it can take some time.

I can honestly understand a lot of your frustrations being there myself at times.

But also possibly get his hearing tested. As you just never know, especially as you said he does this yelling out thing. (Could be completely wrong)

Take some time to have a really good close look at certain behaviours, does he get frustrated by touch or the feel of certain things like clothing. Does he like or dislike cuddles/handholds etc.

Is he fussy about foods? Drinks?
And what are his sleeping habits like?
What is he like with eye contact? Not just with you or his dad or anyone?

He may be really struggling inside to try and get across what his needs are to you. But he cannot do that very well, especially at his age. And it's coming across as constant bad behaviour.

Maybe do some more research too on additional needs.

I really hope things work out for the better. Please don't give up hope 💐

Please also keep in mind there will also be a touch of jealousy there for the younger one as they do tend to get a lot more attention. Fingers crossed this will also pass as he gets older too.

This is "minutiae" and will probably get lost amongst all the replies but, holding a child's hand or saying "hold my hand" at crucial times, such as the flight of steps just doesn't cut it, their hands in particular get very hot and sweaty and slipping out of your grasp is easy. Hold him with your full hand clamped round his forearm, that does the job. He might wriggle but he can't escape. A detail, I know, but every bit helps.

I massively sympathise with you OP. And I think it’s totally normal to think about how your life would have been much better without your child/children, and you maybe regret having them, when times are tough. There are a lot of threads about regretting children on here. It doesn’t mean you don’t love them and feeling like you regret them during hard times (which can go on for years) doesn’t mean you will feel that regret forever. Obviously it could not be more important to never ever let your children sense that regret.

I highly, highly recommend you contact this parenting coach https://findingflowparenting.coach/ She would help you figure out what is going on for you and for him, and work with you to create bespoke practical strategies to build the relationship and behaviour you want.

@hoppingandhop two things could simultaneously be true. It may be that he has learning difficulties/SEN. It could also be he's picked up on your attitude to him and has worked out that the only time he gets attention is when he's silly/defiant.

A parent- child relationship is NOT a two way street for a long long time. It's a one way street. Even if he doesn't respond to any of your techniques, he's still your child and you are the only mum he has. And actually that's true for the rest of his life. When he's 18, you can choose not to have a relationship with him, but it's not an option now. I'm not saying it to be harsh, but to reframe how you see him.

He's actually a very small child- four is very young even though he might seem like a giant compared to your much younger child. It may also be that he's a more difficult four year old than the average (he is certainly more defiant than both of mine were at this age). But if you see that as the starting point (rather than 'this is how it's always going to be') and then parent him as he is, and celebrate the very small victories, it may help you to find some small pockets of joy that will reframe your relationship with him.

From your outlook and way of posting I think you may want to consider looking at your own potential ND, you sound very anxious and black and white.

How is that in any way helpful to OP right now apart from making her feel more shit?

So if he doesn't answer, how much time do you give him? Maybe it does take him long to process? On average we should give someone 10-12 seconds at bare minimum to answer a question. Now ask a question to yourself, and count to 12 and see how long that is. That he's then shouting 'Pasta' means that he was overwhelmed by your asking repeatedly and he's shouting it out.
Also the unrelated answer is entirely common- children say a LOT of nonsense and make connections in their head that are not obvious to us. I would use this as an opportunity to ask him why he said that. The answer probably made sense in his head.

@hoppingandhop just to reiterate a previous poster - the appearance of not listening and then answering rudely sounds like PDA to my (non professional) mind. My DC gets overwhelmed even by simple binary choices (i.e. ham or cheese sandwich?) and will either zone out or lash out.
Also just to say my DCs neurodiversity was not picked up by nursery staff, primary school staff or even by us - it was a mental health crisis that precipitated assessment and diagnosis. After receiving the diagnosis a lot of behaviours subsequently made sense.

People have probably said (or not dared to) that you might want to consider autism/adhd. For example, with adhd and aged four, a big space will demand he runs into it, and your voice won't even register. Whether he is neurodivergent or not, he is at risk of serious harm - from your attitude. He needs your support and approval. Even if you're trying to hide that you don't like him, don't want to be with him, wish you hadn't had him, the message will be getting across. I'm not trying to make you feel guilty but you do need to address the problem. You don't want to harm your firstborn, you're just frustrated. You're the adult. It's down to you to find a way.

You have my sympathy @hoppingandhop , my DS is nearly 3 and can also be very challenging.

Off the back of reading this thread, I've requested to go on a local parenting course, because the degree of frustration I feel with certain behaviours is really overwhelming.

One thing I have found with DS is that some strategies do work, but it can take literally months. It's not a case of "if I try this strategy then the behaviour will stop;" it's about doing it again and again and again.

For example, we have an issue with DS flipping his plate over on the table or dumping his food on the floor as soon as he is bored at the table (literally from one mouthful to the next). It has taken months of me removing his plate when he does this, looking for tiny signs he's finished and prompting him to pass me the plate, and praising any small progress to get to him sometimes push the plate towards me when he is done. And sometimes picking up food he has dropped. That's on top of the wailing if there's something he doesn't like on his plate ("if you don't like it, you don't have to eat it. Would you like to put it on my plate?"), demanding snack food instead ("That's not on the table today. You have X and Y on the plate. Would you like some peas?"), and the getting upset and demanding to sit on our laps ("We sit at our own seat"). And now we have the new behaviour of playing inappropriately with food when he is done (eg mashing everything together and smearing it on the table). Every single meal, every single day.

It's relentless that each of those irritating behaviours is taking months of redirecting and correcting to address, but it does eventually work.

I know you don't want advice, but one thing I have found a bit helpful with the not listening is "don't ask more than twice" - so if I've asked DS to do something once and he hasn't done it, asking again right down at his level where I know he can see and hear me. And if he doesn't do it then (most of the time), then scaffolding it in some way - so taking him to the shoes, asking him to get them out, praising him if he does and if he doesn't just sitting him on my lap (physically holding him there), getting the shoes out and putting them on his feet. I would like to be encouraging him to do things like that more independently, but realistically we're not there yet.

Hi OP,

That thing where he doesn't listen and then shouts "PASTA" totally resonates here, as well as responding to a question with a totally different topic. We have that too.

Do you have a lot of corporate middle managers in your family by any chance?

It's just possible that your DS is just a bit of a shit. Sorry to say that, but boys can be really difficult.