To not tell my kids the truth about why we had a second Easter?

[BookArt55]

My kids are young, 2 & 6. We celebrated Easter a week ago, because the very new court order states dad would have them until 6pm on Easter Sunday, first weekend contact since new court order has been put in place. They always come back extremely tired, disregulated and pretty often it feels like the eldest comes back angry with me. So I decided to celebrate a week early so we could enjoy our 'Easter with mummy'. We had a great time, and they understood they would have two Easters as next weekend was a weekend at their home with daddy.

Before handover this weekend, which would be the longest they have been away from me, i explain how many sleeps and that handover is around dinner time so they understand when they are coming back to their home with mummy. They like to know, it helps to settle them. Kids go off for their weekend with dad. I ask for dad to confirm whether he would be giving them dinner every Sunday before handover, his response is he is not giving them dinner as handover is at 9am (old court order timing). I just say okay as I am so used to him changing his mind last minute and trying to mess with me that I didn't hold my breath, especially as he knows Easter means a lot to me. But slightly surprised that at 9am the kids come back to me and we have a lovely second Easter.

Kids have now asked why I lied to them about coming home around dinner time, when it was after breakfast and why they had two Easters with me and no celebration with dad. No easter egg, repeat of christmas and one birthday with minimal effort being made. It took me by surprise, mainly because I was expecting it at bedtime last night, not tonight.

I said that mummy got the best Easter present, a second Easter with my two favourite people in the whole wide world. They didn't question any further.

But what would you say? I don't want them to know about any conflict with dad, but it was noted in court that Dad tells the kids adult issues and coparenting relationship is awful. But often my responses mean my eldest blames me for everything and not daddy. I'm worried this Easter I am getting the blame again, I suppose I am worried that my answers are putting me as the one who decided, that I am the reason they didn't get more daddy time...

Any suggestions on how to word dad choosing less time with the kids as not my fault, obviously not the kid's fault, but also not making the kids aware of the conflict?

Probably massively overthinking this. Second time in just over a week he has chosen to have less time, and always leaves it to the last minute when I've already prepped the kids with the plan to make them feel more comfortable. I try to leave it as late as possible before sharing the plan.

The kid's are just so used to getting conflicting messages and being told that mummy is the unkind, rude, mean one that I am trying to be careful with my choice of language so that I don't add to the way dad paints me to the kids.

He is probably playing a control game with the times op. Depending on ages of the children it’s difficult. But I would just be honest. The time we agreed is x but daddy needed to work. If you are confused they probably are too.

I don’t think she is. She’s asked for advice and is getting really good advice from other mums who have been through this and have the battle scars to prove it.

I’m guessing the posters who keep referring to ‘early years’ mean early help.

They are part of social services but not the child protection part (although they are linked to them and can obviously make safeguarding referrals to them).

You can ask for intervention from them if you’re experiencing difficulties in the family, a couple of my friends have had support from them - one with their teen who was self harming and struggling to go to school.

They can work with the whole family and involve school in support if need be. You can just request their involvement as it’s voluntary it doesn’t need to come from another agency or as a result of a safeguarding disclosure.

The kids will work it out in time and realise who was the stable parent. They take it out on you because you feel safe. No advice other than to say hang in there. As the child in this situation I have no idea how my own mother managed to bite her tongue but am very grateful both parents didn't behave like my father did.

https://frg.org.uk/get-help-and-advice/what/early-help/

I would be vague and factual at that age. Oh the timings changed and I’m so happy we got extra time together.

I wouldn’t give a set, rigid schedule to them if it’s likely to backfire. Just tell them you’ll see them on x day. Be positive and welcoming when they come back. It’s hard on kids having separate parents so big emotions are going to be felt. I always felt like I got the brunt of these emotions when they were younger but I am their safe person!

Mine are 13 and 11 and they see things for themselves. They know which parent in consistent and keeps their opinions to themselves… they know through repeated behaviour and actions who is who.

I agree with this.

If it’s him dropping them back just say “well it could be anytime of Sunday! I thought it would be dinner time.” And leave it there. I would also maybe be a bit more factual about the state of things- good luck to you xxx

I hadn't heard of Gingerbread, but just had a quick look and will contact them. Thank you so much!

This.

Couldn't agree more to your post. I refer to them as 'your home with daddy' and 'you home with mummy' we also have nicknames for both homes that show equality because I agree with you, they have two homes.

Unfortunately ex now won't even hand over a bag to me, he stands 5/6 metres away, sometimes just out of CcTV range and makes the kids struggle with their things. If I approach any closer to help them or pick the 2 year old up because she is so tired he will dramatically shout 'stand back' etc. This has been more dramatic for the kids so I just stay still until he leaves and then support in every way. Before that I always said hello, etc, and was ignored every time. It's awful for the kids.
I'll keep being as civil. Even at appointments we both had to attend he refers to me as 'Mrs BookArt' rather than my name to say I'm doing something wrong to the doctor but otherwise i don't exist to him. I just keep cheery, carry on like normal.

I think just tell them they'll be back to you by 6pm at the latest. If they want to know exactly when, then suggest they ask their Dad when they get there. If they ask if they'll celebrate Easter etc at their Dad's then all you can do is refer them back to him. You don't know what Daddy will do with them at his house, but you've planned to do xyz for Easter.

If he's bringing up adult topics like money with the kids, then just tell them you don't want them to worry about that as it's grown up stuff. Keep a record of it in case you need it for court.

Yep I understand your view here completely. Unfortunately when one party storms out mid court findings and due to their time consuming court rants we were up against the end of day so these details weren't all done. The 6pm on a Sunday I had asked for 4pm when the shop closes but I didn't get what I wanted and this was changed by the judge after we left court.

The pp suggested that getting early help involved would assist in having a professional challenge the father about what he's saying to the children. This isn't going to happen. Early help can't work with him without his consent which seems unlikely to be forthcoming. I'm not sure how it would help OP either to have a professional calling the father out of the blue and criticising his parenting. He's hardly going to be receptive to advice and guidance - he's an abusive dick and this would just blow back onto the OP.

This kind of behaviour is very common with Co parenting with someone who is controlling.
If it wasn't this that he was trying to control it would be another aspect!
Try and be more vague with your replies, to avoid confusion and teach the kids to be more flexible.
Also think of some " stock replies" eg "sometimes plans just change"
Coming back disregulated is also pretty common, they are young it'd bound to be confusing.
I suspect these things are done to wind you up.

This. Don't blame him as it will be seen as tit for tat but don't let the children think that you are responsible. 'i don't know why daddy dropped you off early', 'I don't know why daddy didn't give you dinner' I don't know why daddy said those things.

The only thing I would proactively correct are the poisonous statements about you that the kids are repeating. 'daddy sends mummy money because you live here more'

It's really important to acknowledge the unsettling things that he does and says. The children have picked up on the inconsistancies and they obviously have feelings about it. If you were dismissive or too breezy about it, it undermines their instincts that something is wrong and will normalise their dads behaviour. Not necessarily a big problem now but if left to fester it could add up over the years.

If one parent is slagging the other off and the other stays silent they will start to believe the first one or feel very insecure as their eyes contradict what they are being told.

It sounds like you may have a case for parental alienation in the future if ex continues. It's awful!

Dear @BookArt55 - I don’t have experience of this. I was a single mother but father wasn’t able to be involved in my case. I have Single mum friends who had these sorts of controlling relationships though. It’s so hard to watch.

There is a lot of really good advice on this thread especially on communication ideas.

My specific advice to you is to look after yourself with self care when you’re on your own. Try not to worry and use this time to reset. This will help you stay strong, calm and patient on the long road ahead of you. During your time without the kids - get ahead on chores if that helps you feel better - but also do as much as you can to rest and relax your mind. Get into the habit of a bit of meditation , an exercise routine HIIT and yoga all free on YouTube ; eat a nice relaxing meal of something you like and present it nicely; laugh with a good friend; watch a great film; get your hair cut; skin care routines at home; an early night…. Be proactive about yourself and don’t just doom scroll and wait for them to come back.

Also, I would continue to post on here for any advice you need. There are so many women who have dealt with men like this or will be able to lift you with their support.

Finally - do keep the diary of the drop offs and Notes of their behaviour on their return as previous posters have mentioned - specifically with the mood gauge (1-5).
This is useful if this goes back to court, BUT it will also help you download and get it out of your mind so YOU are not mulling over his words, and their behaviour in relation to him.

Trust me - NONE of the (now grown up) kids of my single mum friends have much to do with their dads now. Even though some of the childhoods were 50:50 / full of court orders and precise handover times …. They knew, as they grew older, that the truthful, calm, peaceful and loving boundary filled environments that their mums created for them were what they needed.

You have done so well to escape him. You sound like an incredible mum. Good luck x

You are in a tricky position and it sounds like you’re doing your best. You are absolutely right to do gray rock with him etc and I can remember very clearly the anxiety of any question / interaction. It’s still tricky on occasion.

On the positive you have a court order and the parenting app will track all interactions if he deviates. Make sure you enforce it all.

I had very similar situation when we divorced and they would come home saying why have you got all the money etc when he actually got more in the settlement.

I never slagged him off and tried to remain very neutral, only since they have become early teens do I start to give more of my opinion on things he’s said that are wrong.

I’ve trusted that they will see who he is for themselves by his behaviour with them. I believe they are now.

As you have found, you can't reason with the unreasonable. Stop trying.
As pp, finding a neutral path is hard. "You are coming home on Sunday, Daddy will decide when you are being dropped back. I'll be here." Might play better, although I appreciate that it's much easier in theory than in practice.
The Easter thing this year, we'll you tried really hard to make it smooth for them.

Be matter of fact with them in a child friendly way. I used the term court and explain a judge says Daddy contact time is this - it’s up to him to make contact and it’s up to you to make sure the child is available.

Mine was different as ex often wouldn’t show just to be difficult and that really upset the apple cart so I stopped telling them anything but it made them disregulated.

Ultimately it is abuse it’s emotional and mental abuse.

My youngest has just been with his Dad for a week. He’s much older now but exchange is two hours away (half way) and he will get in the car and ring his Dad immediately on the phone and then talk to him to the entire way there saying where are you and on what road etc. ex thinks it is because he is looking forward to seeing him but actually it’s because he hasn’t turned up multiple times when my son was younger.

The only things that has really stopped my ex being such an arse was me being more then reasonable - he thinks he is winning and he’s not. Sticking to boundaries and just not engaging in arguments. Always having a plan B.

Acknowledge their feelings but don’t be a punch bag. Eg I can see you are confused, I am too.

• you lied to us mummy
• actually Dan that’s really not kind. Mummy didn’t know you were coming back. The court order says 6 pm - daddy returned you back early at 9am. It’s lovely to see you and have an unexpected day - what would you like to do - shall we blow some eggs and decorate them?

I used and still do :
tell me how you feel
this was supposed to happen - but it didn’t - what can we do instead
yes but we have to stick to the agreed times

When my ex didn’t show up - my children were awful and upset but I repeated the mantra

• I don’t know where Daddy is. Contact was for 10 am today at this place. We waited 15 minutes and I sent him a text to say we had arrived and waited 15 minutes and we are now leaving.
• adults need to do the right thing - there is a court order agreed times judge made these times
• I see you are upset, I’m upset too, for the effort we all went to.
• We have to do the best we can do - so we have the rest of the day - and weekend. Shall we walk the dog, and do some colouring.

But you need to build walls around you with gates.

Don’t agree to a drop off with out an agreed pick up time and place and always by text. I have a different phone. I always imagine a judge is reading it, never text in anger and always do it clearly.

Start today get a new phone and stick to one method of communication eg text

eg Just to confirm contact this Easter via the court order is drop off Saturday 1 st April at 10 am at Tesco at post code xxxxxxx. Exchange is at customer services.
Return is the same place at Monday 3 rd April at 10am this is the court order agreed times.

• that’s an example of my text - I tell not ask.

Do not negotiate stick to the order. If he says no Saturday I want 2 pm say no - court order times only.

Eg reply the court order says Saturday 1 st April at 10 am at Tesco at post code xxxxxxx. Exchange is at customer services.
Return is the same place at Monday 3 rd April at 10am this is the court order agreed times. If you are not there you miss your court ordered contact time.

You need to build the walls - no one else. The judge has given you the bricks use them.
The judge helps you by giving you an order- stick to it. Screen shot and attach the order if needed.

If he isn’t there the child / children have been made available at the court ordered time and contact is on him. He then loses time until the next time. It is the only way.

I always had a separate phone just for contact with him - so all my text and phone calls were on one phone and I could turn it off if he got too much. And separate email address.

I always met in a public place - Tesco customer services. I always took a third party.

Even now mine are in their teens I would take someone - now it is my giant calm husband and my ex looks like a rabbit in the headlights.

No exchanges at your house and take someone with you always - at least until he starts playing the game with the rules.

I feel for you, it sounds like you’ve handled it really well.

I have a 6yr old and 3rd old, I’d probably have said “I think there’s been crossed wires kids, that’s what I thought was arranged but never mind I’m so lucky to have you back!”.

As they get older, it’s wise not to cover for your ex. Whilst you can soften the blow to protect them, be wary not to let yourself come across as the bad one, especially if dad is manipulative. You have the upper hand by being the responsible, main carer, don’t let them think badly of you.

In the next few years you can start to be a little more honest “dad must have been confused as we agreed you’d be there until dinner”. “If dad is rude about me kids, please know that’s because he’s angry, it isn’t true”.

They will know what he’s like and like anything, it’s important to teach your kids what’s good and bad behaviour, whether that’s from their dad or not.

It’s a hard road but one day the children will understand which parent was there for them. That is hard too, when they see the other parent for who they really are but at least then they strengthen their bond with you as adults.

I'm confused, when he said he won't be giving them.dinner as the court order states 9, why didn't you say 'actually in the new court order it says xx?'

It sounds like there are/have been issues but imo you have to be the bigger person for the sake of the kids.

Also I think you are massively over preparing, it's fine for them to celebrate Easter early with you but you shouldn't be giving details of what daddy is doing as you just don't know and it's setting them up for disappointment.

My ex used to promise the earth to DS1 but it never materialised - holidays, days out etc I just tried not to get involved and no2lw he's older he remembers it and even has banter with his Dad about it 'hey dad, you still owe me that holiday to Greece you promised me when I was 8'...etc

You've had lots of good advice and I agree with others to be vague about timings.

Be factual and honest but with no emotion. "I'm not sure why daddy brought you back now but let's do x,y,z and have fun/ I am happy to take you to your activity."

If they say you are spending Daddy's money I think it's again fine to say something like (if he pays maintenance) that when a daddy lives in another house they still need to help pay for things you buy like school uniforms, clubs, etc, things like that. Parents needing to help with their children even when they live in another house. I've never commented on amounts, just keep it factual.

I have always told my eldest that I use MY money, and a bit each month from his dad to give him a happy healthy life. I've always talked to my children openly about money, about how I pay all the house bills, buy us nice food and clothes and then we have a little bit left for things like fun activities.

If asked about spending or anything at dad's I just say I'm not sure, and to maybe ask Dad. How he does things at his house eg food and money is up to him just like it's up to you at your house.

In a way it's about grey rocking the kids too but in a gentler kinder way, he is trying to upset and destabilise you through these things the kids parrot back to you.

They will eventually see through it if you stay calm and factual with them.

I also sometimes talk generally about people who say mean things about others. Often friendship issues with their peers can be used as a general tool to learn about why people sometimes blame others, are unkind, seem angry, say mean things etc.

Also: this is emotional abuse and parental alienation. I'd advise keeping a factual non emotive diary of any times he doesn't stick to, any questions the kids have, any upset behaviour from them, any adult things they parrot back etc.

Also ask their school to be aware of this. Speak to their safeguarding lead or emotional well being person and ask it's noted on file and they are kept an eye on and checked in with. They need to know they previously lived with parents in an abusive relationship and that dad is trying to continue this via the kids. It will affect them so everyone else around them needs to look out for them and be there for them.

Just say dad changed plans without getting too much in details.

I understand the relationship was abusive but your no longer with this man so he doesn’t get to have the control anymore. You need to be more assertive and TELL HIM the court order has changed and the new time is 6pm. Some men are shit partners but really good dads that put their kids first. Your ex doesnt sound like one if those men. Sounds like if you say black he says white. I would send the kids to their dads and say I will see you Sunday. No need for a specific time. The kids have told him ‘mum says we’l be home at 6pm’ so he’s brought them back at 9am and disregarded the new court order that he (definitely) is aware of.

kids can have a plan without being too specific.

If you find he is being too difficult you need to get advice or help from an outside source. Your priority is your kids health and happiness.