Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Trans protest- sharing for balance

1000 replies

Tandora · 20/04/2025 11:47

There’s a thread sharing some really awful images from the protest, so I wanted to share some positive ones for the sake of some perspective/ balance.
A lot of people are really understandably incredibly angry and overwhelmed by the events of the last few days. But most people who support trans rights absolutely don’t condone fighting oppression and injustice with misogyny.

Trans protest- sharing for balance
Trans protest- sharing for balance
Trans protest- sharing for balance
Trans protest- sharing for balance
Trans protest- sharing for balance
OP posts:
Thread gallery
19
Sarahconnor1 · 20/04/2025 14:59

Tandora · 20/04/2025 14:56

No they didn’t. They said for the purposes of interpreting language under the equality act “woman” means biological female, and “sex” means biological “sex”. As far as I understand but I may be wrong as I confess I haven’t read the full 88 page judgement yet- they did not define biological sex.

Edited

Are you suggesting that you don't know what biological sex means? No wonder your confused.

VanishingVision · 20/04/2025 14:59

I'd like to add to the points raised here: I personally after alot of thought welcome the ruling. I'm upset that the 'debate' had to become so vile but honestly I found it to be a relief. I was hoping that we would see some clarity and peace but clearly TRAs have decided that a line in the sand has been drawn and I do not support the actions at this protest. They of course have every right to a protest, but the images I've seen have just perpetuated the TRA violence and misogyny that they claim doesn't exist and I genuinely take everything in the media with a hefty dose of salt. I know this doesn't represent all trans people but it doesn't exactly paint a good picture. I don't want the ruling reversed providing trans people are protected in law from discrimination, abuse and harassment.

Trans women are not biological women, trans women are trans women i.e transsexuals and trans man are also transsexuals. The odd trans woman/man using the opposite sex toilet once in a while was likely a workaround that maybe worked for a while in a way, but that has since spilled into a massive overreach that was genuinely caused pain and hurt to women's rights (and women themselves) over the years but it has also failed trans people, whilst enabled misogynistic and violent opportunist men.

Third spaces, where possible are needed. Not everywhere can provide but that's unfortunate. If third spaces were available readily in gyms, swimming pools etc I would actuslly use those places. I don't want to get changed around anyone, men or women. The ruling about single sex spaces does not prevent us from participating in society, providing we are protected In law. This is my perspective as a trans woman.

pirateshirt · 20/04/2025 14:59

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/04/2025 14:58

It does. It goes into detail why you are wrong. Have you read it?

Why would OP read the thing she is such an expert on?!

SnoopyPajamas · 20/04/2025 14:59

Tandora · 20/04/2025 11:47

There’s a thread sharing some really awful images from the protest, so I wanted to share some positive ones for the sake of some perspective/ balance.
A lot of people are really understandably incredibly angry and overwhelmed by the events of the last few days. But most people who support trans rights absolutely don’t condone fighting oppression and injustice with misogyny.

"Trans people have always exsisted and will always exsist"

Someone probably should have run that one through a spellchecker before they went to the trouble of painting it. It doesn't exactly fill you with confidence about the age or level of education of the person who made it.

Trans people have only "always existed" as an escape route from misogyny and homophobia. The modern sense of trans - this idea of the begendered spirit 'assigned' to the wrong body - really only caught on in the early 00s. It was fueled by the media and by websites like Tumblr, and only got as far as it did into the mainstream because the ideology attached itself to the gay rights movement and took advantage of people's desire to be kind.

The cult is already losing ground. In fifty years time I think historians will look back on the trans craze the same way we view lobotomies and the Satanic Panic.

"Predatory men are the problem, not us!"

The trans movement contains, and has actively shielded, many predatory men. Many with gender recognition certificates. Even the ones that don't are covered, as a core belief of the movement is that when a person says they are something, they can't be challenged, and it is "gatekeeping" to ask them to prove themselves. Trans men are men and trans women are women, etc.

But trans women are actually men, and they offend at the same rate as other men. This includes violent crime, and crimes of a sexual nature. Statistically, they are as much of a threat to women as any other man. Not all men will commit opportunistic sexual crime against us - but enough men do, that blanket protection in our most vulnerable spaces is a good idea.

"Not us"? I would suggest the trans person who painted this sign learn a new phrase: "It's not all about us."

"This lesbian says trans women are women"

The sign is covering the person's face, so no way to know who's holding that. But regardless, one lesbian can't speak for all lesbians. Or all women for that matter. If one woman in a group of ten wants to let a man into the toilets, she doesn't have the right to speak over the other nine to get her way. So frankly, who cares what this one person thinks?

"Sex is not binary"

Yes, it is. The fact that disorders of sex development exist doesn't change the fact that human beings are a fundamentally sexually dimorphic species. There is a sex that makes the large gametes (ova) and a sex that makes the small gametes (sperm). You need both to reproduce. There is no third sex capable of interacting with either gamete to make new human beings. Just because the sexes have occasional differences in presentation, doesn't mean there aren't still only two.

You can say this and still have perfect compassion for intersex people, who never deserved to be dragged into the trans debate in the first place.

"Trans lives matter"

This slogan was taken from the Black Lives Matter movement, so can only mean this judgement means trans people now suddenly fear police brutality against them. There is no evidence whatsoever to support this idea. I haven't seen any trans people shot in the street by police since this judgement came down. Or suffocated to death in a chokehold. Or beaten up. All things considered, it's a pretty tasteless and inappropriate banner to be holding up. Whoever made it should find a more respectful way to make their point - whatever it was supposed to be.

ViolasandViolets · 20/04/2025 14:59

There’s a thread sharing some really awful images from the protest, so I wanted to share some positive ones for the sake of some perspective/ balance.

Funny how your first instinct is not to condemn the rape and murder threats but to try and pretend you can provide ‘balance’ by creating a thread ignoring them.

OP why do you want to campaign to allow men to watch young girls undress?

aylis · 20/04/2025 15:00

The judgement explains what it means by biological sex. It's very straightforward.

How is someone who hasn't read the judgement making entire threads about how terrible it is?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/04/2025 15:00

SeedyHotel · 20/04/2025 14:58

The MO of TRAs.
It’s predictable after all this time.

Isn’t it. I’m just entertaining myself whiling away time on a Sunday, as I think many of us, including OP, are.

literallyarabbit · 20/04/2025 15:00

Riaanna · 20/04/2025 14:53

I’ve asked. Multiple times. They won’t answer.

I know she won't but I always enjoy asking Tandora this!

Tandora, surgery, hormones, a piece of paper in the form of a GRC will not change anyone's sex. Biological sex is coded into every single cell of our bodies. Once dead and only their bones remain, it will be blatantly obvious their sex because men and women have different skeletons.

Another question. Do you understand the difference between sex and gender. Also, do you understand that many use gender when the word they should be using is sex.

KateShugakIsALegend · 20/04/2025 15:00

KateShugakIsALegend · 20/04/2025 14:42

I am interested. Please can you repost?

OP? Please can you repost?

thisannoyedwoman · 20/04/2025 15:00

Tandora · 20/04/2025 14:52

They would make sense to you if you would listen with an open mind

Would it make sense to you, seriously, if people started to insist that they were children? That they feel the need to enter children’s only spaces because that’s what they “feel” that they are, even though the fact is that they’re not children — they are adults. Would you think that it was totally reasonable for them to demand entry into their spaces, where the children are the ones statistically at risk?

There is a limit to how much nodding along to absolute nonsense people can do and unfortunately for you we’ve reached the limit of it. Men who identify as women may very well need help figuring how how their self esteem got so low and their delusions were allowed to get so out of hand, but that’s not women’s problem to fix, and it’s certainly not our delusion to appease at the cost of our own safety and comfort. It is not possible to be born into the wrong body, nor the right body. You’re just born into the body you are with the sex that you are. If you feel you’re something else be that a different sex, a different race, age, animal, whatever, is irrelevant.

anon666 · 20/04/2025 15:00

Tandora · 20/04/2025 11:59

Nope. Neither of those statements are remotely misogynistic. so no, you don’t get to reinvent your anti-trans ideology as misogyny.

The pictures that were shared on the other thread were deeply misogynistic and disturbing.

I'm not sure you get to mask misogyny by claiming it to be "anti-trans" either.

I think this is the whole reason for this issue blowing out of proportion, and massively backfiring on the trans community.

It makes me very sad that trans activists have taken such an extreme stance, literally trying to reinvent reality for a tiny group of (yes) marginalised and, in sone cases, vulnerable individuals.

Unfortunately it can't be done. You can create your own reality in your head and no-one will object you living it.

What you cannot do is force other people to live in your imagined new reality. We do not share it. And the law has finally backed us up. We've been dismissed, belittled, patronised and denied rights by a group of men seeking to squash us yet again. And we're angry that this ridiculous debate even had to be held.

juldan · 20/04/2025 15:01

ThisFluentBiscuit · 20/04/2025 13:06

Not true; TERFs don't want a trans woman in the cubicle next to them even if she's had her penis and balls removed and has had lots of hormone therapy, and passes completely as female. TERFs still don't want them there and they are unconcerned about what harm might come to her if she uses the men's, post-transition. See the recent thread on here ("How to live in the female gender") written by someone who has fully transitioned and was told by numerous posters to stay out of female toilets. TERFs are completely and utterly compromising, they don't want transwomen to exist, they deny that they exist, and they don't care about their safety. It's the new hate.

@ThisFluentBiscuit What a load of rubbish. Please show us one post stating that women don’t want trans women to exist??????? I have never seen one.
Women RIGHTLY do not want trans women in their single sex spaces.
Nobody is objecting to trans women having their own safe spaces. Why aren’t trans women campaigning for that????
They could campaign for spaces, which would be for trans women only if they do not feel safe using unisex facilities.
What they can’t have anymore, is access to women’s single sex spaces as they are not women.

Tandora · 20/04/2025 15:01

Foxgloverr · 20/04/2025 14:58

@Tandora please could you answer my question? I'm genuinely interested in why you think it's OK to prevent transwomen from competing in women's sports categories?

It’s a really complex question. I’d be happy to discuss this as with many other subjects, but there’s no place for a civilised conversation when people just keep insisting that transwomen are men and that stating otherwise is a conspiracy to destroy women. If that is the level of where the conversation is it’s impossible to have a reasonable discussion about policy.

OP posts:
Minuethippo · 20/04/2025 15:01

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

IrisPallida · 20/04/2025 15:02

Tandora · 20/04/2025 15:01

It’s a really complex question. I’d be happy to discuss this as with many other subjects, but there’s no place for a civilised conversation when people just keep insisting that transwomen are men and that stating otherwise is a conspiracy to destroy women. If that is the level of where the conversation is it’s impossible to have a reasonable discussion about policy.

Ah, that's OK then.

Job done. Off you trot.

AnSolas · 20/04/2025 15:02

Tandora · 20/04/2025 13:31

The protesters are protesting a dangerous new variety of fascism that has taken increasing hold of the public discourse and our public institutions

The rule of law is a dangerous new variery of fascism?

Emm the "magna carta" has been around for a while.

Foxgloverr · 20/04/2025 15:02

Tandora · 20/04/2025 15:01

It’s a really complex question. I’d be happy to discuss this as with many other subjects, but there’s no place for a civilised conversation when people just keep insisting that transwomen are men and that stating otherwise is a conspiracy to destroy women. If that is the level of where the conversation is it’s impossible to have a reasonable discussion about policy.

I'd be interested in having a reasonable discussion and would like to know your thoughts on this. I'm glad you're happy to discuss it. Please do go ahead.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 20/04/2025 15:02

Tandora · 20/04/2025 14:56

No they didn’t. They said for the purposes of interpreting language under the equality act “woman” means biological female, and “sex” means biological “sex”. As far as I understand but I may be wrong as I confess I haven’t read the full 88 page judgement yet- they did not define biological sex.

Edited

Oh for god's sake, you are really scraping the barrel now.

aylis · 20/04/2025 15:02

Tandora · 20/04/2025 15:01

It’s a really complex question. I’d be happy to discuss this as with many other subjects, but there’s no place for a civilised conversation when people just keep insisting that transwomen are men and that stating otherwise is a conspiracy to destroy women. If that is the level of where the conversation is it’s impossible to have a reasonable discussion about policy.

This would be a good place to post Barrackers famous post, if only I could.

Again, now apply to women.

Tandora · 20/04/2025 15:03

IrisPallida · 20/04/2025 15:02

Ah, that's OK then.

Job done. Off you trot.

👍🏻 🫡

OP posts:
AngelicKaty · 20/04/2025 15:03

AndImBrit · 20/04/2025 12:04

But PP is not wrong.

Not all men are predators, but we still have women’s only spaces because we can’t identify predatory men from non predatory men.

I’m happy to switch out the word “men” with “people with penises” as that’s broadly what I mean.

So we need spaces where no people with penises are allowed, as people with penises are statistically more dangerous and so they should be kept apart.

Trans women are part of the more dangerous subsection of society, and offending rates are the same in trans women as they are in men. So they need to be treated the same as men. And so non predatory trans women should be treated in the same way as non predatory men.

Predatory biological men are the problem. Biological men and not cis men, so that includes trans women. Not all trans women, but also not all men.

"Trans women are part of the more dangerous subsection of society, and offending rates are the same in trans women as they are in men." Or maybe worse ...

Trans protest- sharing for balance
Unijourney · 20/04/2025 15:03

It's all feeling a bit Monty Python now, some people are trying to claim men can be women and the OP stomps about shouting Fascist at us

Reposting because it's true!

CrossPurposes · 20/04/2025 15:03

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Bloody hell you went there.

MyNameIsX · 20/04/2025 15:03

IrisPallida · 20/04/2025 15:02

Ah, that's OK then.

Job done. Off you trot.

Off you trot?

VickyEadieofThigh · 20/04/2025 15:03

Tandora · 20/04/2025 15:01

It’s a really complex question. I’d be happy to discuss this as with many other subjects, but there’s no place for a civilised conversation when people just keep insisting that transwomen are men and that stating otherwise is a conspiracy to destroy women. If that is the level of where the conversation is it’s impossible to have a reasonable discussion about policy.

Your position, therefore, is that you won't answer questions because people won't agree with you.

I'm afraid we can't bring ourselves to agree with your faith-based statement - trans-identifying men are male and will be no matter how they dress or what surgical/medical modifications they make to their bodies.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.
Swipe left for the next trending thread