Trans protest- sharing for balance

[Tandora]

There’s a thread sharing some really awful images from the protest, so I wanted to share some positive ones for the sake of some perspective/ balance.
A lot of people are really understandably incredibly angry and overwhelmed by the events of the last few days. But most people who support trans rights absolutely don’t condone fighting oppression and injustice with misogyny.

How do you know? I thought no one could tell which humans women were?

Oh no, no. Third spaces are 'transphobic and othering' apparently. The complete capitulation of women is the only acceptable outcome to them.

Goodness, how would we know what “gender” the protesters are?

The type of fascism that is taking hold has nothing to do with science.

Not true. Its hold is now being released following the SC ruling.

That is what I thought. Quite easy to see through to the real motivations then.

Do you listen to posters here who are pro women?

It's so weird. What on earth is "othering" about a space that literally everybody can use?

No. What we're NOT going to do is erase biological reality. The world is not agreeable to 'coaching' itself into denial of biological reality, and the perception thereof, so that a group of men can feel more convincing in a dress. In simple terms, the majority of people are not in favour of an extreme form of societal change whereupon only identity will exist.

I’m going to peel some potatoes and carrots now.

Im sorry we can’t find a middle ground @Tandora and believe it or not but I feel sorry for you. I feel sorry for all the women who believe that their rights to safety and dignity are worth less than giving men the freedom to access women’s spaces. I am cross at how years of hard fought for rights have been eroded by this lie.

But I tell you what, the women on MN who calmly and articulately make their arguments on threads like this keep me strong and make me feel less downbeat. They give me hope.

I’m happy to engage, Tandora, and, indeed, I believe I’ve engaged with you before about this. Women’s rights aren’t fascism. Transwomen can ‘live as women’ (whatever that means) socially, but sometimes sex matters.

I don’t think you have explained the actual science you believe that can turn a man into a woman. There isn’t any. A male person remains male. I’m not going to go round pointing that out to TW going about their business, but sometimes their natal sex will preclude them from women’s services. Most understand that.

Removing genitalia and taking hormones affects a male person but it doesn’t turn them into a woman.

I mean - the SC judgement affirmed that trans identifying persons are protected under the law, both as having gender reassignment, and also according to being members of their own sex. They are also protected from discrimination if someone mistakenly thinks they are the opposite sex.

This also means transmen in particular continue to be protected for discrimination on the basis of their reproductive status.

So basically these protesters are protesting that they can't also have women's sex based rights. I don't see what's positive about that.

Words matter. The adoption of the word transwoman was very wrong.

Transwomen want to share women’s spaces v cross dressers want to share women’s spaces. Hits very differently.

I agree.

Supporting trans people = dismantling patriarchy

Sums it up for me.

I don't doubt it. Women have been the greatest supporters behind LGBTQ rights and the legalisation of sex marriage.

The problem is that a very small trans militant group influencing politics against biological women's rights, are risking women support to turn against the trans movement.

Don't take for granted women's rights. We've fought for them with tears without male governments giving a crap about us.

@Tandora
Nope. PP is right. Women are women and trans women are trans women. Nobody who was born with a penis and clear male characteristics ( I am not talking about the very rare cases when a baby has some of both male and female genitalia) can be a woman. They can be a trans woman but not a woman .

Fine, I’m erasing them then.

Are they your idea of women or actual biological women? Because those two things are not the same.

Don't be so ridiculous. It's time for this childish hyperbole to stop. If I say transwomen are men they don't disappear. I just dont have the same beliefs that's all. No one disappears, no one dies.

I have repeatedly explained the science behind sex, gender and transness, including posting links to all kinds of research: it is of zero interest to the vast majority of mumsnetters . People are not interested, they have already decided what they believe and they are completely radicalised into that singular viewpoint.

I recognise Transwomen for who they are - Transwomen. I'm one who wouldn't (and hasn't in the past) have a problem with a fully transitioned Transwoman using female toilets.

My problem comes when I try to define exactly where a Transwoman crosses that line to become one. Is it at full surgery? Is it after x months of hormone treatment? Is it at the first moment they start fully "living as a woman"? Or is it the first time they try on a dress? Or the first time they have a non-stereotypical male thought like disliking football & loving crocheting?

You see from my point of view, there needs to be a line because otherwise anyone and everyone can claim "women's" privileges and rights. Whenever a line has been fuzzy in the past, when a line hasn't been clearly defined, and I'm not particularly talking about this subject but many others as well, then people will take that extra inch until that becomes the norm, then take the next inch and the next and so on until the line may as well not exist at all.

@Tandora
Could you explain something please?
Do you think there is any biological difference between

1. someone who was born female (XX chromosomes and observed female genitalia at birth) and
2. someone who was born male (XY chromosomes and observed male genitalia at birth) but as an adult declares themselves to be a woman.

If you do recognise a difference do you think those two distinct groups of people should be treated in exactly the same way in everything in life (Sport, Medical treatment, prison locations, female changing rooms etc.)?

Trans rights as they currently framed, grounded in the erasure and intimidation of women, and the vaunting of gender stereotypes, could not be more patriarchal if it tried.

You've got absolutely no analysis, no recognition of women's history, just a bunch of soundbites that are increasingly similar to incel rhetoric. It's utterly depressing.

I would say that trans ideology is a dangerous new variety of fascism that has taken increasing hold of the public discourse and our public institutions, actually.

You are welcome to live in a delusional reality, but I don't enjoy being expected to or forced to join in and pretend.