M&S changing rooms

[SweetChilliGirl]

Was I unreasonable to send this to M&S?

Good morning,

Having not shopped for lingerie with you for several years, due to your policy of allowing trans-identifying men into the women's changing rooms, can I now be assured that, in line with the judgement of the supreme court males will no longer be allowed to identify their way into your single sex changing rooms, thus preserving biological women's dignity and safety? I would very much like to be able to shop with you again.

I look forward to hearing from to to clarify this important matter.

Regards,

Sweetchilligirl

Don’t be a fool. Perhaps you can’t do what the average baby can do and tell someone’s sex, but the rest of us can.

How do you think single sex spaces were policed proper to the last 10 years? And why do you think they exist?

What was the full question?

If a baby could tell that the person I posted was a woman biologically, good on them. I wouldn’t be able to, no.

single sex spaces have typically been policed by looking at someone and making a judgement about their biology based on their appearance. I wouldn’t be able to do that with the trans man I posted.

male cleaner (no such thing as cis

Fair. I always used cis/trans as like cis man "someone born male who calls themself a man" and trans man "someone born female who now calls themself a man"

I'll use trans man / man on here then. I'm not going to start called trans men women though personally.

@Bikergran I do wonder if the end result will be ID cards proving your sex. I have always looked androgenous. I'm very athletic-looking and don't wear make-up.

Well I assume you can read, but as you’re trying to be clever. Here

Tell me, why are you so determined that women and girls shouldn’t have anything for themselves, that they privacy, dignity and safety don’t matter?

and my opinion is becuase when I am changing in a private cubicle which isn’t on view for anyone else, it doesn’t matter who’s next door. And I think everyone should feel the same. Someone minding their own business who has no access to viewing you, should be allowed to go about their business without being bothered.

But locked cubicles are essentially unisex individual changing rooms. Women and girls are safe in them

what I object to is cubicles in a changing room which only have curtains. The never fully shut unless you spend ages trying to overlap them and anyone can walk in. If i walked in alone and saw a trans women come in after me I can’t help but instinctively read them as a man and I wouldn’t get comfortable enough to strip almost naked.

We have male cleaners where I work and I honestly don’t care, never felt threatened. If men aren’t longer allowed to come in to clean them it’ll be more work for the female staff to clean all the ‘female’ areas, not a great win for women.

Are women going to challenge men entering female spaces? If you’re as scared as you claim to be about this, I doubt it. Any man can just say ‘I’m trans’ and enter female spaces, putting women at more risk than ever.

So, I didn’t ask you about you. I asked about women and girls. But you can apparently only think about you.

Anyway, I’m leaving this thread now. I can’t be dealing with the profoundly and hatefully misogynistic among MNers.

When male cleaners come into our toilets, they knock and check if anyone is in there before they go in. They put a sign up outside to say it is being cleaned and reopen when finished.

You did ask about me 😂 you asked my opinion. My opinion is based on my experience.

The absolute last thing I am is misogynistic. I’ve had enough bad experiences with men to last me a lifetime. I just don’t think scapegoating one of the most marginalised sections of society is reasonable.

Not at the ones I was in yesterday. He walked in the entrance door and was cleaning etc as women were going in and out of cubicles and the main door, washing hands etc.

They’re not marginalised. How can you say that when the Scottish government went to court on their behalf? Against 3 women.

By no measure are they marginalised.

That is very unusual unless there is a specific sign at the door saying male cleaners in attendance. Then a women could choose if they want to go in . I would not be happy to be going to into a female toilet and man was inside without my knowledge. I’ve spilled drink over my trousers before and had to stand in a public toilet in my knickers before with my trousers under the dryer. I absolutely couldn’t do that with a male cleaner walking about. I also got changed in the toilets before where I had no changing faculties and I sure as hell aren’t going to do that by a stinky toilet in the cubicle.

But ultimately why does someone being marginalised override my comfort? Why do i have to suffer to make someone else feel better about themselves? Why am I as a woman bottom of the pile?

We have male cleaners where I work and I honestly don’t care, never felt threatened. If men aren’t longer allowed to come in to clean them it’ll be more work for the female staff to clean all the ‘female’ areas, not a great win for women.

This isn't the same though.

The law doesn't say no men are ever allowed in female.spaces under any circumstances ever but that if services are advertised as being female only then those who use them should be female only.

I'm camping the moment. The showers are unisex. What is essentially a shed with 3 separate cubicles each housing a shower behind a lockable door.

This morning, I had a shower. A man was showering in the next cubicle. Was it a problem? No. Did i care? No. Because they are unisex showers.

That is very different to a man lying and misrepresenting who he is to gain access to a space where women have been assured only women will be present. And where women are removed if they correctly identify that a man is present.

Precisely this.

Mixed sex changing rooms have problems with voyeurism and increased rates of sexual assault. I don't care how 'female' someone looks - if they're male they should be in the male changing room.

But do shops have to provide single sex changing rooms? I don't think they do. Uniqlo has mixed changing rooms for instance (with curtains that don't shut properly so I won't try on clothes there). I'm not sure shops are obliged to provide any changing rooms at all, let alone single sex ones.
So presumably M&S can carry on allowing men in the lingerie department changing rooms, regardless of the SC judgment?

Love the message and totally agree except that I will not be going back to M&S. The reason is I was completely disgusted with the way they made their decision about changing rooms and allowing males in, a decision they took without any consultation with women, who are overwhelmingly their main customers. I wrote to them at the time about the lack of respect or care for female customers and I would boycott them in future. Never got a reply of course. They let women down hugely, and don't deserve our custom now imo.

Exactly. Women have been marginalised, killed, raped and treated as barely second class citizens (if they're lucky) for centuries. Why do trans rights suddenly trump women's? And why has such totaliterian subservience to the trans minority been demanded? There are other minority groups who don't enjoy such unilateral and unquestioned protection. Transwomen do not affect men on any level whatsoever and yet trans, gay and even straight men are screaming at us to shut the fuck up as if it was nothing to do with us.

They aren’t safe.

look at the school in the states where girls were held captive in locked cubicles and raped by a boy who claimed he was trans.

Oh look. Another thread inspired by the Supreme Court ruling where the OP has not made a single additional comment.

What is the purpose of these other than for women, in good faith, to repeat all the points that have already been made in numerous other threads?
If you are looking for screen grabs proving MN is a hotbed of hateful transphobia then you are going to be disappointed.

Go and eat your Easter eggs or whatever it is bored teenagers are doing today.

You are not unreasonable to send an email to a company. You can send whatever you like. Bit weird to post your whole email online afterwards though. I mean, it's done now, so what are you going to do if people say you were?

M&S must be beside themselves to have you considering a return as an in store lingerie shopper.
Don't forget to share their response

Which school is that?