M&S changing rooms

[SweetChilliGirl]

Was I unreasonable to send this to M&S?

Good morning,

Having not shopped for lingerie with you for several years, due to your policy of allowing trans-identifying men into the women's changing rooms, can I now be assured that, in line with the judgement of the supreme court males will no longer be allowed to identify their way into your single sex changing rooms, thus preserving biological women's dignity and safety? I would very much like to be able to shop with you again.

I look forward to hearing from to to clarify this important matter.

Regards,

Sweetchilligirl

And as you have been told, just because you personally cannot correctly sex a person, doesn’t mean that other people cannot. Your personal inability doesn’t reflect the rest of the population’s ability.

Same for me. Walked out of the cubicle in some gender neutral loos in a cafe, actually thinking I was reluctantly on board with using them in that instance, to see a man at the sink a few feet away - and the instinctive reaction was instant and absolute. Automatic risk assessment: he's between me and the door, there are empty stalls behind me, the toilets are at far end of a huge open room with no one in immediate hearing... I know it's a thousand to one, but if he had been that "one", I'd have been utterly helpless - the mixed sex space put me in a position in which I, quite simply, had to trust that he wasn't. And being forced to place my trust in a strange male, with all I know, when there are alternatives to this, is simply not good enough.

I've not actually gone back since - I'd have liked to, but why would I when other venues don't present the same slightly increased risk and stress? But why the hell should I have to self-exclude in this way?!

I just don't think men, including transwomen undergoing treatment, begin to "get" the impact of the male-female strength & size differential on how women navigate the world. OK, men may have play-fought, or real-fought, other far, far stronger men, as I have other, far stronger women (martial arts) - but being overpowered by the same sex is simply not the same as when someone is, quite literally, in a totally different (sex) class to you strength- and size-wise.

Most males, including most transwomen, are in a position of absolute, not relative, power over most females. With that comes, for almost all women, a deep-seated wariness that's totally natural - nature - and encouraged by nurture - how many bad encounters of what kind & to what degree degree have we each had (& it is a matter of how many etc., not whether we ever have...)

We deserve space from this, and from them.

When you recognise and accept this, the sense with which words like "inclusion" and "safety" are now often used is, frankly, insultingly facile and ironic.

It would be helpful if you posted a link with your claim. I looked but couldn't find anything?

Seriously, what are you on about? I think you are making up confusing a lot of things 🙄

Which cases did you 'mix up' exactly? I know of the Loudon County one but perhaps you are thinking of another Loudon County one, in which case, again, a link would help. Btw, the attacker is not 'accused'. He is convicted. Of 2 2021 attacks. Not 'trans' Whatever the defence case WAS in his case, he had met up with the Loudon County victim at least once for consensual sex. Which gave him no right to assault her when she arranged to meet him in the womens bathroom again. As a result, he was thankfully convicted and is a listed sex offender

So - for clarification - in the US, population 340+ million, which 2 attacks are you actually talking about. No need to be vague

I hadn't realised that there was more than one attack in the US. I clarified in a subsequent post.

A teenage boy is accused in the Harrison High case.

A different teenager has been found guilty of sexual assaults including rape in two different high schools, one of them being Loudon High. (It was the Loudon High case that I remembered because there was so much publicity around it at the time - the school initially denied that an attack had taken place. I'd forgotten the name of the school, however.)

I'm not sure whether I can put three links in one post, but shall try.

As yet, there's no specific school for the Essex case, presumably to protect the identities of the victims. The accused is a teenage boy.

Harrison High:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/15-old-girl-says-fellow-180150306.html

Loudon High:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10396151/Loudoun-County-boy-skirt-spared-jail-sexually-assaulting-female-classmates.html

Essex:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-66052546

ETA Have just noticed your subsequent post where you say that you're aware of the Loudon High case. As I'm sure you'll agree, even one case would be more than enough.

No deliberate attempt to be vague. Links given above.

I'm surprised that you now say that you're aware of the Loudon County case, since you accused me of making up things.

As I said, I did indeed confuse the two cases. I had been aware of the Loudon County Case, but couldn't remember the name of the school.

But what about the links for the attacks by the 'trans identified males' you've claimed happened. You've clarified nothing 🙄

Daily Mail? Really? LOL
I suggest you actually read the links you've posted.
Here's one from me
www.nytimes.com/2023/08/05/magazine/loudoun-county-bathroom-sexual-assault.html#

It was the Loudon High case that I remembered because there was so much publicity around it at the time - the school initially denied that an attack had taken place. I'd forgotten the name of the school, however
It's not 'Loudon High' btw so not sure you 'remember' anything. There was not 'so much publicity' either. Unless you are counting Fox etc. And no denials that anything had happened

Come on. You are doing yourself no favours here.

Their choice to disrespect biological women sad if they avoid the exception but we have to keep in mind the hurty feeelings of men in dresses who are the ultimate victims, suppress by more mysogonistic men and handmaidens, who never consider the feelings of Women whom have suffered for centuries

I don’t doubt the odd person can can pass, but I do think it is a minority. If you happen to have more the sex characteristics of the opposite sex to start with such as height (shorter man or taller woman) or features (I have seen some very feminine males naturally) then of course it makes it much easier. I can honestly say every single person that has been on the TV recently has not passed at all, even the most super glamorous of trans women.

I can only speak that I have worked with several trans men and they were clearly biological women. Despite their increased body hair, the height, build, physical stance, mannerisms, even the way they laugh, and even their general aura was female and it is very hard to override. The way they sat in meetings gave it away pretty strongly as our skeleton affects how we sit and so it didn’t look natural for a male. These subtle clues give it away even if a person passes facially.

That would be unisex. It's my understanding that a space can't be marked female only if it allows biological men in. If you want to phrase it as inclusive of people with a different gender identity as their biological sex then fine but the sign on the door has to state that it's a unisex space.

Perhaps we can have a space designatned for misogynistic LARPING.

Why do you need to know? My position has nothing to do with the thread topic.

I had a similar experience to others with using unisex toilets in a restaurant in Borough Market last summer.
DH had already been to the Loos and I asked him where the ladies was. He looked at me, said they were mixed, he knows how I feel about them and that they were up 2 flights of stairs, honestly, my face!!
The restaurant wasn’t busy so I asked him to come with me.
They were indeed up 2 flights and behind 2 doors. There were about 4 cubicles I think.
If I’d have been in there alone and something happened, absolutely no one would’ve heard. It’s stuck in my mind because of how isolated the toilets were and that no one gave a toss. I shouldn’t need a chaperone!!

Well how strange that you bi-passed an in built ability that most people have.

It's survival instinct.

Even very young children can tell.

lol

🙄

Well Bridget Philipson seems pretty clear on this on behalf of the Government.

https://x.com/roseveniceallan/status/1914576957892608050

Facilities should be on the basis of sex. EHRC guidance will reflect this.

Nothing to stop there being unisex facilities but I can't for a minute imagine that Marks and Spencers will not offer single sex in addition to unisex.

Well done OP for sending the letter.

And to be clear she says that if a trans woman is out and about today they should use the facilities that correspond with their sex.

Wow. That is very clear.

At last.

Seeing someone on the telly and saying 'I'd know they were trans', is like having the answer sheet to a quiz though. In real life there are plenty of people you would have no idea about. I knew my daughters next door neighbour for 2 years before finding out she was a transwoman.

Then you must be staggeringly unobservant.

We are genetically hard wired to detect the hundreds of micro mannerisms that are different between men and women.

Even tiny children can tell the difference with almost 100% accuracy.

It really isn’t that’s the point. If you can’t tell then that’s fine but most people can. Whether they say anything and confront is another matter

I've noticed that if there is a trans actor in a tv show that I see this much quicker than dh does. Perhaps women are better at spotting something being off in some way than men? Or perhaps it's just down to individual attentiveness? Though I can see why women would need the ability to detect males more than males would.

I work for a huge retail chain and I’m going to interested to see how this will be rolled out. In the store I work for we have female and male changing rooms, I think most stores will now just make all of their changing rooms a unisex area. Stores like my local H&M and Primark already do this. As things stand in my workplace currently we are advised to point men to the cubicles to the left and women to the right. With Trans people we just advise them to pick an empty cubicle of their choice. Nobody has raised an issue with this, I also don’t have a problem with this because the doors can lock and I feel safe. I do have an issue with trans women using women’s toilets/changing rooms and rape crisis centres. I feel there should be a third space provided.
I do wonder how it will be enforced though, I would have no issue telling a trans woman to leave a female only area but some of the people I work with and who manage the fitting rooms are 16 years old. It’s unfair to put that on their shoulders.

qandatime

I think many will just observe the law tbh.

I know we have seen the protest and behaviours over the weekend in Parliament Square but I suspect people will be far less 'brave' about flouting the law individually because they know they can now be turned away.

It's genetic. Women have evolved to successfully spot any male in their midst. Either as a potential mate or as a potentially predator.

Our brains are very basic on some levels.