M&S changing rooms

[SweetChilliGirl]

Was I unreasonable to send this to M&S?

Good morning,

Having not shopped for lingerie with you for several years, due to your policy of allowing trans-identifying men into the women's changing rooms, can I now be assured that, in line with the judgement of the supreme court males will no longer be allowed to identify their way into your single sex changing rooms, thus preserving biological women's dignity and safety? I would very much like to be able to shop with you again.

I look forward to hearing from to to clarify this important matter.

Regards,

Sweetchilligirl

Email is good, but I personally stopped shopping at M&S a few years ago, the quality has declined significantly

I’m just not comfortable there so I’m not taking my clothes off end of chat really

Rightly or wrongly, those with 'passing privilege' will continue to use whichever space they like and go undetected. Although very few TW do and what they often perceive as having 'passed' is really usually just women not feeling confident about challenging a male.

People break the law all the time and go undetected - shops don't check every bag to see if you've stolen something, for example.

The law relies on trust that people will act lawfully and steps in when they don't and are discovered.

Those TW who use female toilets and are unseen or pass will probably continue to do so but the clarification in law means that, where a man/TW is identifiable, he can be stopped. Which hasn't been the case until now.

My closest friend is a lesbian. She usually dates quite butch lesbians. Not one of them would be mistaken for male unless someone assesses a person to be male/female based purely on their clothing choice/hair length. They all have breasts for a start!

But no one is going to start doing genital checks 🙄

The vanishingly small number of people who looks so convincingly like the opposite sex that no one would know, will be able to go into the room for the sex they identify with.
I think that will be 1 in a million for trans women though.

Do M&S even have single sex changing rooms anymore? I thought they were just for anyone.
OP, they don’t need to offer single sex spaces. It’s a choice. The law simply means they cannot be sued for discrimination if they choose to offer them, it doesn’t meant they have to offer them. They’re a privately owned business.
They need to abide by the law for their staff, so staff would need single sex provision but they can offer whatever changing facilities they want to in their shops.

I live in the ME. M&S's changing rooms here categorically are single sex - I know, because I emailed them & asked.

They'll bend to whatever plays best with the local zeitgeist. Pretty sure that that doesn't involve pissing off UK women of a certain age & financial status.

The difference is that last week, they could fudge & gaslight us that the huge hairy person scratching their balls & admiring their erection in frilly knickers in there, 'identified as a woman'.

Now they have two choices. They can make fitting rooms single sex & politely deny entry to anyone trying to access the incorrect facility. OR they can make everything unisex, & deal with the deeply unpopular consequences.

& no, they can't get round it with 'women & transwomen', because that would discriminate against men who don't happen to be transwomen.

They are going to have to pick a side.

Fair point. I am so filled with rage that we are back to having to defend our legal spaces that I misread your post.

Germaine Greer was right. Women really have no idea how much men hate them. The response from many to the SC ruling has made that crystal clear, again. I could fucking cry.

So my response to anyone shrugging off our hard-won and endlessly embattled rights is pretty visceral. And that’s how I take your post. “Those people care. I couldn’t care less. Shrug.”

I think it’s going to take women putting themselves through a load more court cases before this finally gets put to bed. Maybe if we’re lucky it’ll have sorted itself out for our granddaughters. Not for our daughters though. I just can’t see that happen.

Reasonable to ask. Don't expect the answer you should have. M+S may choose to clarify somewhere such as on its website or in small print that for them women includes those who identify as women. Or that their staff may not feel empowered to intervene should a man go into their female changing rooms. You can imagine the excuses a man could come up with.

Men go into the single sex changing rooms to accompany their female partners anyway in ours (not into cubicles, they stand outside them or sit on the waiting chairs) so I’d be surprised if they change any policies now. The cubicles are lockable so I don’t care either way, but I appreciate others do.

My local M&S has a nice unisex changing room, little sofa area at the entrance to it, a member of staff there to answer questions, request different sizes etc and floor to ceiling , individual cubicles with locks. Personally find thus far preferable to other shops with curtains. Do you object to bored partners sat on the sofas waiting aswell or just to trans people? How do you manage at big water parks or swimming pools which now have unisex changing rooms and family rooms. Do you think someone who has been transitioned for say 20 years, has surgery, looks like a female (you could not tell unless they told you) should now have to use the men's toilets and changing rooms?

Yes, you misread it. How you choose to take what I said is up to you, not me.

My local M&S has cubicles you can see under, I don't feel safe there.

If they have individual rooms with lockable doors I honestly don’t care (my local one has) I feel perfectly safe and can’t see why anyone wouldn’t. Same with loo’s.

If it’s a flapping curtain/stalls job then completely agree!

Surely your daughter would be happy to be challenged as that means her androgynous appearance is working.

Outrageous that you are calling woman idiots because they might challenge her. She can use the men's facilities if she passes as a man. Oh no wait...she won't want to because men can be a danger.

Totally agree. And most of the clothes now look as if they’ve been designed for a Victorian themed fancy dress party.

I do like their changing rooms with doors though, hope they stay. I’m old enough to remember the horror of the communal ones in Miss Selfridge.

As to the point of the thread, I’m really interested in the reply that will, hopefully, be sent to the OP (do let us know). And I’m also keeping an eye out for anything that organisations who bought into the braying mob mentality of the TRA’s may now say. I suspect it will be a resounding silence. Or, like Ocado, they’ll blame the temp!

Meanwhile it’s easier than ever now for men to enter female only spaces as they just claim to be a trans man. Proving this was never about safety.

Read this on another thread.

http://www.drazhakeem.com/specialist-psychotherapy-for-gender-dysphoria/

Are you telling me that your female androgynous looking friends currently use the male facilities? I’m assuming not - so they will presumably continue to use female spaces, and occasionally (and it will be very occasionally because women can identify sex very easily) they’ll have to clarify to someone else using the facilities that they are female? Same as now?

Omg, do people really politicise every tiny aspect of their lives like this? I go in and out of Marks and it would truly never occur to me where they advertise.

I agree. I wouldn’t no they advertise on GB news because I don’t watch it. So that poster must watch it or follow it to some extent to no in the first place.

Of course you can tell. Why do you think they don’t want to be in male spaces? Because they know men can tell too and too many men are Neanderthals when it comes to a feminine man.

Unisex spaces have been shown to be less safe for women and girls. They also exclude those women who need female-only spaces because they are survivors of male violence or for religious/cultural reasons.

Your theoretical person who’s been transitioned for years and has had surgery (which is a minority of those who call themselves trans) could have spent the last 10 years campaigning for more unisex spaces alongside male and female spaces.

The point to me is that they no longer get to lie to women and pretend they're offering single-sex changing rooms when they aren't. They'll need to say their changing rooms are mixed sex and take the financial hit when people don't want to use them.

Hmm, I don't know if M&S or any shop for that matter says that their changing rooms are single sex, it is just assumed that they are because of the floor that they are on.

I imagine that they will persist with this ambiguity to avoid an legal issues.

What exactly do you expect them to do? Insist on checking the genitalia of anyone wishing to enter? Come on.