to not understand why Christians think Jesus died for our sins?

[switcheroooo]

If Jesus died for everyone's sins, does that mean people are not accountable for their actions? You can kill people, steal and lie but have a protected status because Jesus died for your sins.

How does this work? Why are people not responsible for their own sins? Where is the justice?

It does not matter what faith you have or what faith you do not have.

it is a personal relationship that brings many joy and also many can not understand it or may have decided it is not for them.

Anyone can disagree, have doubts, reject the concept as they wish but we should respect we are all different.

I was taught there is no hell. The bible says the dead know nothing.

When you have an operation and are given anaesthetic you awake as if you have been asleep just a short time. This is how I see death.
The bible also talks of more scrolls being opened and an opportunity for those not able to hear God's word to have a 1000 years to come to learn the new way. We have no idea of what the scrolls will say.

Let's no argue about what is it is not believed.

And they do, including on this thread.

Your own theology doesn't sound very Christian. Everyone ends up where they believe they will? What denomination of Christianity is this?

Sorry you feel that way. I guess as long as I'm a good person and help and do good then I'm going to heaven.
I won't get upset if others don't share my beliefs.

It’s not a good sign if people don’t dare to ask questions about a religious belief because they’re scared of reprisals or being called racist or whatever. I think it says good things about Christianity (at least in the uk) that its followers generally tolerate (respectful) questions and respect the beliefs of others.

Much better put than my posts. Thank you 😊

Excuse me ?!!! I wasn't going to comment but this one is too rich to let it go. Should I mention the many, MANY situations where religious people have tried to impose their views on others ? Isn't that what Isis was all about ? Never mind the Inquisition, cursades, etc. You'll be hard pressed to find atheists killing people in the name of atheism.

I'll leave it there as it wasn't the point of the thread in the first place but wow, the levels of delusion and self-victimisation are astounding !

Crusades not cursades, though I kind of like that typo !

I really don't care what people believe. People believe all kinds of bollocks.

It's when they insist their beliefs are true when there is no good evidence that they are true, and then they inflict their beliefs on the rest of us, even to the point of instilling their beliefs into UK law, that I get angry.

Honestly, I couldn't care less if the king had converted to Islam. Not that i believe for a moment that this is the case, but as far as I'm concerned, religion should be an entirely private matter.

The issue would arise, however, because of his current role as Head of the Church of England. So, given your apparent concern that the church is now being led by a practising muslim (albeit a closeted one 😂) perhaps you would agree with me that it's time to disestablish the church from the state and remove its privileged position within our constitution so that the monarch can practise whatever faith they like as a private individual, and so that the church can be led by a true believer?

That's interesting. The problem I have with that is that God asked Abraham for something that wasn't Abraham's to give in the first place - unless you believe that children belong to their parents, which you'd expect from someone who lived two thousand years ago, but not from an all-powerful all-knowing (supposedly) deity.

Also what of Sarah ? If my husband took my miracle baby to kill him I'd divorce his ass and get him in jail. I imagine Sarah didn't have that option back then but I can see the atmosphere in their tent being quite strained afterwards...

Thing is, a lot of things in the Bible only make sense when you consider they were written by people who lived two millennia ago, but not when you consider that it's supposed to be inspired by divinity.

Good question, I suppose I have always (perhaps rather naively) assumed that true repentance comes not from fear or selfish motivations, but from genuine empathy, compassion and regret.

Any repentance which is self-serving isn't true repentance.

I remember from school, the parable of the criminal who prefaces his prayer to God by saying that he is not worthy of forgiveness and Jesus said that he is closer to God than someone who lives a righteous life. Which I suppose ties in with parables about the prodigal son and lost sheep...In Jesus' teaching, much is made about those who live 'sinful' lives feeling regret, humility and unworthiness.

I don't consider myself Christian, I'm far too agnostic, so I haven't ever really thought about all this but now that I do, I don't recall any of Jesus' teaching talking about 'sinners' in terms of those who enjoy going out drinking and living 'worldly' lives...they always refer to people who've committed crimes. And Jesus was always fairly disparaging about the rich who hoard wealth and resources, even if they give charitably. Very powerful messages.

Any repentance which is self-serving isn't true repentance
I think this was one of the moral issues which led to the Reformation, not just in England but across Europe...The idea that salvation couldn't be bought by saying Hail Mary's and obtaining forgiveness from a priest, or from donations and bequests to the Church for masses, but through authentic repentance, which assumes one experiences genuine regret and feels a commitment to not repeat the action.

This is just utter nonsense. I used to be a Christian and we engaged in healthy debate regularly. We were hungry for knowledge and enlightenment. We questioned the Bible. We questioned our own faith. We asked hundreds of questions. Hundreds. It was important to be able to do this, even if the end result was to acknowledge at least some degree of blind acceptance around the concept of faith. Human beings are curious by nature. To quell that curiosity is unnatural.

Has anyone answered my query of what happened to people before Jesus arrived?

Much of western civilisation is based on the teachings of Jesus Christ, messages that were radical at the time:

Let the person without sin cast the first stone
Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you

He was a dangerous man, turning the status quo on its head. That's why he was executed. So in a way Jesus Christ, by showing us a better way to live, died for our sins.

I'll try!

Firstly anyone who says they have all the answers is either deluded or knows so little they think they know everything. Some people would thoroughly disagree with some of this, but these are my thoughts.

1. If you go to the creation story, it's referred to creation taking place over seven "days" . "Days" may well have been used to refer to a passage of time, rather than 24 hours. Animals were created before man. So dinosaurs were created before man - 1000s of years before.
2. It's generally though to be about 4000 years between Adam and Eve and Jesus.
3. Well there's a few thoughts here. Elijah was taken up to Heaven in a fiery chariot in the Old Testament. 2 Kings 2:11 As they (Elijah and Elisha) were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind. So there was a concept of Heaven.

The people in the Old Testament were told if they kept all the laws and stayed pure then they would go to Heaven. But it was pretty impossible to do which is why Jesus came, so that he could be one sacrifice for all sins, and enable us to be forgiven and purified.
The people in the old testament when they died, remained as we would think in a sort of stasis, where they had died on Earth, but not been raised from the dead. When Jesus died, then they were raised from the dead and taken to Heaven.
Some people believe that if people die now then they will remain in the same state of stasis until Jesus comes back. So there will be two points where people are raised. Others believe that when you die you go straight there. I think I err on the side of the second.

In 1 Samuel 28, King Saul decides to consult a medium to call up the dead prophet Samuel to ask him what to do. In verse 15 Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Which sounds like he's been disturbed from sleep! Plus he refers to bringing "up" whereas coming to/from Heaven in the Bible is always referred to up to Heaven, and down to Earth.

4.Yes, many Christians believe in evolution. Science and Christianity actually meet quite well, despite what the media would like to say. God created creatures, and then used evolution to create more creatures from them. There is nothing inconsistent about evolution happening (which we know it does) after creatures initially being created.

I can think of 100s of questions I would like the answer to. But the thing that really convinces me about Jesus' resurrection is this:

When Jesus was arrested - his disciples and followers fled. They went into hiding. They denied they ever knew him. They didn't want to be found because they were scared of also being arrested. They went back to Galilee, back to their old jobs as fishermen and hoped not to be recognised. They had no wish to be killed like Jesus.
But something happened. Something changed them from being scared fugitives to being people who were prepared to stand up and talk to crowds, knowing that they were likely to be arrested, flogged and even killed. I think out of the 11 disciples left, 10 were martyred, as well as others who weren't part of the original 12.
What inspired them? Why would they have done this if they hadn't seen something amazing that convinced them? It's not like they were posting for likes on social media, and hoping that by risking their lives they'd get more followers. There was no concept of this back then. The ordinary person got on better if they didn't stand out to their peers.
They were a small sect in a small area. What changed their minds so this set of ordinary people went out fearlessly preaching?

In Acts 5, one of the Pharisees says something similar:

33 When they heard this, they were furious and wanted to put them to death. 34 But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law, who was honoured by all the people, stood up in the Sanhedrin and ordered that the men be put outside for a little while. 35 Then he addressed the Sanhedrin: “Men of Israel, consider carefully what you intend to do to these men. 36 Some time ago Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing. 37 After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered. 38 Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. 39 But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.”
40 His speech persuaded them. They called the apostles in and had them flogged. Then they ordered them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.
41 The apostles left the Sanhedrin, rejoicing because they had been counted worthy of suffering disgrace for the Name. 42 Day after day, in the temple courts and from house to house, they never stopped teaching and proclaiming the good news that Jesus is the Messiah.

And think about nowadays too. People come, are seen as great leaders, people follow them, but when they die/stop, the movement dies away too. So how come this sect grew in numbers after Jesus' death much faster than it did while he was alive?

I think as some PPs have said it’s the transactional nature of belief and reward, sin and paying for sin that I find doesn’t really add up. It’s not just Christianity that has this, but the story of Adam and Eve and Christ’s sacrifice makes it very stark.

I don’t understand why what Adam and Eve did was so bad at all. Why did god create humans the way they are, if what he wanted was devotion, innocence and perfect faith? we know what humans are like, they are tempted, they are imperfect and they seek knowledge. it is no surprise at all that eve was tempted. It’s what humans have always done and it’s a tiny crime compared to many others throughout history, including the crimes of Christians, including priests and even popes.

I realise this means I don’t understand, but it makes god seem petty and capricious, which can’t be the intent.

I do wonder why there isn’t a religion that just says “god loves all of creation and wants you to do your best. Try to be good by being kind and considerate where possible. Appreciate and enjoy the beauty of the world and help each other. Feel free to make beautiful churches and music to the glory of god but god still loves you anyway whatever. The end”. It seems to me this would be just as useful, and comforting so it always seems odd to me that most religions are more about the importance of belief, rules about things you can’t do/sin and punishment or rewards. I know that sounds naive and a lot of religion is about human control, but still you’d think a purely positive religion would exist.

This is nonsense. The golden rule, for instance, is found in many pre-Christian religions and philosophies.

If Jesus existed in history at all, he was like a greatest hits of pre-existing myths and philosophies. The miracles. The virgin birth. The prophecies. All extremely common to anyone who studies ancient history and fable.

Times change and people change.
The jesus narrative was a way for religious leaders to transition from the full on fire brimstone and eternal damnation of the wrathful god's old testament's control over followers to the softer more forgiving turn the other cheek religious control not based so much on fear because people wanted a less vengeful deity sort of religion.

Religions are about control and were created by power hungry men. I prefer your version of god than the one(s) man made.

Jesus never went willingly on the cross and said HEY EVERYONE, IM GOING TO DIE FOR YOUR SINS.

THats just illogical, wrong and actually quite ridiculous. That jesus was beaten, stripped naked and nailed in severe pain for everyone to gawp at and then we can all go murdering and stealing but if we accept jesus as God or Son of God, then its all washed off.

I couldn't understand this. Hence why I left Christianity because I couldn't worship jesus every single Sunday at church. Is he God ? Is he son of God,? Then being told he's both.
Then i saw in bible
Revelation 22:9 ►
Verse (Click for Chapter)
New Living Translation
But he said, “No, don’t worship me. I am a servant of God, just like you and your brothers the prophets, as well as all who obey what is written in this book. Worship only God!”

The bible also says jesus said do not put me higher than my father.
Jesus also said why thou call me good, only my father is Good.
He also said, my father is greater than I, my father is greater than all.

Then I'm confused as to how people in church openly workship jesus saying he's god, but then the Bible also says God cannot be a man. Yet they claim jesus is God in human form. But I thought he's son of God, then they say he is also. So how can God be God and son of God. And who did jesus pray to? He certainly didn't pray to himself.
They said jesus has been there in the beginning but it never says jesus was with God when God created the world.....

Jesus also never ate pork, yet Christians happily eat it.jesus never drank, jesus never had sex, jesus fell to the ground and prayed
With his head down, bowing in prostration to God.

. So all this is very similar to Muslims, they don't eat pork and wait til marriage for sex. The bible also says cover your hair or it's a sin to have it on display and if you do show your hair then shave it off.

Then I read more about jesus in Islam. He's a mighty prophet in Islam and he's not to be worshipped. Only the one true creator is to be worshipped.

I don't think jesus died for our sins at all.
The cross itself, was how everyone in those days were tortured and killed. There were other people on the cross too who were put up there for whatever crime they supposedly did.

If a person commits a sin, they repent to God and truly ask for forgiveness and never do it again..

The quran says God is most merciful, all forgiving.

The only sin he went forgive is worshipping others alongside him.

I reverted to Islam and left the church after learning this, op.

Well, I suppose if you recognise that Jesus was Jewish, then as per Jewish theology - although I don't know what Judaism says about gentiles. I believe the concept of the afterlife is quite vague in Judaism, but I'm not an expert.

We also have to understand that our concept of Hell developed in Medieval Europe and, very simply, its my understanding that when Jesus spoke about what happens in the afterlife it was more about being closer to or further from God.

If we accept, for the sake of this discussion, that Jesus was sent by God to demonstrate to humanity a better way of living, a more compassionate way of living, which brings people closer to God (both in life and death) then I assume more people ended up closer to God after Jesus than they did before. Jesus' teaching after all influenced billions more than the small Jewish sects who originally adopted them.

I've realised with this thread, that I don't actually know when the concept that Jesus died for our sins originated. I know we were taught it from primary school, but thinking about I don't recall it being specifically said in the Gospels before the crucifixion, so I suppose its time I dusted off the old bible and took a look.

I didn't insist my beliefs were true.
I don't know why you're so angry at me.

Yes, OK, so because Adam and eve both committed the sin, yet Adam was allowed off the hook and Eve pays the price with terrible childbirth pains. And now , we are all born in sin until we accept jesus christ as son of God and God too???

So all children are born in sin?
That's sad really. Looking at a newborn in hospital and saying they are sinners .....?

In Islam, all children are born pure, and the women who go through the pain of childbirth will get good rewards from God that will increase in their good deeds. Every drop of pain and every drop of milk she gives to the infant she will be given good deeds to go to heaven.

In islam, we beleive in good deeds and bad deeds which will be measured when you go to meet God. Depending on this and his mercy, thats How You get to heaven.

jesus said do not worship me and do not put me higher than my father.

Jesus said I cannot do anything on my own. He can only do the miracles by what God allowed him to do.

Its in your bible. :)

It sounds like the concept you struggled with is the Holy Trinity, which is a hard one to get your head around. There was an AMA here once where the op, I think a vicar, gave a simple explanation.

then we can all go murdering and stealing but if we accept jesus as God or Son of God, then its all washed off
This isn't what Christianity teaches, although granted there have been many throughout history who have used it to justify abhorrent actions and forgive themselves.