Page 39 | to not understand why Christians think Jesus died for our sins?

switcheroooo · 2025-04-20T09:06:56+00:00

If Jesus died for everyone's sins, does that mean people are not accountable for their actions? You can kill people, steal and lie but have a protected status because Jesus died for your sins. How does this work? Why are people not responsible for their own sins? Where is the justice?

ZoggyStirdust · 23/04/2025 14:50

switcheroooo · 23/04/2025 14:27

I have explained numerous times that not everything can be explained. I even provided you with a link regarding intuition.

I explained how even scientists cannot explain everything. Doctors cannot explain everything either. Here is just one example of a case where doctors were unable to explain why this woman recovered from cancer so quickly and came back to health despite being terminally ill:

You ignored it and carried on with your usual response.

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When something isn’t understood that doesn’t mean people need to fill that gap with a supreme being making it happen. That’s a pretty primitive action.

when we don’t understand why something happens we try and find out

CloseEncountersOfTheTurdKind · 23/04/2025 14:51

Tryingtokeepgoing · 23/04/2025 14:14

I have never been interested enough to look for inconsistenices, as I don't believe any of it. It makes no difference to me if people fo though, and if it gives them purpose and menaing then that's all to the good. But a quick google shows many inconsistencies, so it's surprising that someone who does believe hasn't picked up at least a few. Here's a sample:

The sabbath is often portrayed as a day of rest, yet it was also when people were commanded to cary the ark around Jericho. Somewhat negating it's purpose as a day of rest.

There are contradictions in genesis about the flood, with 8.4 having the ark rested on the mountains of Ararat in the 7th month (the 40 days and 40 nights) but 8.5 not having the mountains visible until the 10th month

There are even inconsistencies around the resurrection; who arrived at the tomb first? Matthew says Mary Magdelene and Mary mother of James; Mark has those two plus Salome, Luke then adds Joanna and John only mentions Mary.

And most importantly for this thread, for atheists and believers, and for the Mumsnet business model in general, proverb 26.4 advises not answering a fool, whereas 26.5 suggets it is better to answer a fool :)

Thats before we come to the glaring factual inaccuracies, with Genesis 1 & 2 have god creating the universe and earth, followed by the creation of humans and creatures over a period of a week. Or is it 6 days, as it took a whole day to create the universe, including earth? Yet there is plenty of geological, astronomical and scientific evidence that proves this to be wrong.

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With the Sabbath being a day of rest, it doesn't mean you can't do anything. It is paid labour that shouldn't be done. It says farmers should still care for their animals and that healing should still happen, so Drs and nurses can work on the Sabbath. Walking round Jericho isn't working.
For the mountain thing, I took it to mean that Ararat was the tallest mountain and it took time after landing there for other mountain tops to be visible.
The first people arriving at the tomb all day Mary. There aren't contradictions, it's just that not everyone remembered every person who had been. Same as if you asked someone to name who was at the park after school or something. Different people would remember different combinations, it wouldn't mean they were wrong just because they didn't all have exactly the same list.
For the proverbs thing I guess it depends on the particular fool you are speaking to .
Genesis 1 and 2 don't contradict each other, not sure where that comes from. I also don't believe they contradict the science. Different scientists looking at the same evidence come to different conclusions. There are many, many scientists who believe in a 6 day creation.

ZoggyStirdust · 23/04/2025 14:53

switcheroooo · 23/04/2025 14:32

Maybe you never understood it properly?

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Please don’t patronise that poster. This thread has been pretty respectful so far

BunnyLake · 23/04/2025 14:53

CloseEncountersOfTheTurdKind · 23/04/2025 14:44

The fact you say 'i was a Christian ' suggests you no longer consider yourself to be one. Someone who is really saved would never lose their faith permanently. If God didn't work in your life or change you, how did you know you were forgiven? What makes you think you were a Christian but aren't now?

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I was brought up Catholic, did all the Catholic things, considered myself a Christian but then as I asked more questions I realised that what I was brought up to believe didn’t seem at all believable.

I don’t know what you mean by ‘how did I know I was forgiven’. I’ve never once said I did or did not know that.

CloseEncountersOfTheTurdKind · 23/04/2025 14:54

ZoggyStirdust · 23/04/2025 14:47

No there is evidence for how all those complex ecosystems came about. Pretty compelling evidence to the level it’s pretty much considered proof.

the watch analogy doesn’t work. Your belief system requires looking at a flower, disregarding all the evidence about how it came to be and believing someone made it, with no evidence for that whatsoever

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I don't see why the watch analogy doesn't work- something complex has a designer, it doesn't appear out of an explosion. And evolution happens within species. One species cannot turn into another. Think of all the complex parts of an eye, for example, how could they have evolved a bit at a time?

ZoggyStirdust · 23/04/2025 14:54

CloseEncountersOfTheTurdKind · 23/04/2025 14:51

With the Sabbath being a day of rest, it doesn't mean you can't do anything. It is paid labour that shouldn't be done. It says farmers should still care for their animals and that healing should still happen, so Drs and nurses can work on the Sabbath. Walking round Jericho isn't working.
For the mountain thing, I took it to mean that Ararat was the tallest mountain and it took time after landing there for other mountain tops to be visible.
The first people arriving at the tomb all day Mary. There aren't contradictions, it's just that not everyone remembered every person who had been. Same as if you asked someone to name who was at the park after school or something. Different people would remember different combinations, it wouldn't mean they were wrong just because they didn't all have exactly the same list.
For the proverbs thing I guess it depends on the particular fool you are speaking to .
Genesis 1 and 2 don't contradict each other, not sure where that comes from. I also don't believe they contradict the science. Different scientists looking at the same evidence come to different conclusions. There are many, many scientists who believe in a 6 day creation.

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I’m sorry you actually believe in a 6 day creation? A young earth?

CloseEncountersOfTheTurdKind · 23/04/2025 14:55

BunnyLake · 23/04/2025 14:53

I was brought up Catholic, did all the Catholic things, considered myself a Christian but then as I asked more questions I realised that what I was brought up to believe didn’t seem at all believable.

I don’t know what you mean by ‘how did I know I was forgiven’. I’ve never once said I did or did not know that.

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A Christian is someone who has trusted in Jesus for forgiveness, so I assumed if you said you were a Christian that you believed you had been forgiven. What do you think a Christian is?

BunnyLake · 23/04/2025 14:56

ZoggyStirdust · 23/04/2025 14:53

Please don’t patronise that poster. This thread has been pretty respectful so far

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Thank you. Which is why I said I don’t think their god would approve such a response. It is rude, lazy and smug and unless their god does not mind those traits I’d suggest that poster says a few Hail Mary’s in repentance for their transgression.

ZoggyStirdust · 23/04/2025 14:56

CloseEncountersOfTheTurdKind · 23/04/2025 14:54

I don't see why the watch analogy doesn't work- something complex has a designer, it doesn't appear out of an explosion. And evolution happens within species. One species cannot turn into another. Think of all the complex parts of an eye, for example, how could they have evolved a bit at a time?

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Evolution of complex things is proven. Yes species become other species. Yes the eye evolved. We know that and we know how.

very complex things evolved. I think you’d be better accepting facts and trying to fit your beliefs to them rather than denying facts

Original poster

switcheroooo · 23/04/2025 14:56

Tryingtokeepgoing · 23/04/2025 14:45

Remarkably, you seem more negative in your responses and closed in your thinking that the atheists on this thread. All of whom are taking the view that you should and can believe if you want to. It does no harm to the non believers. But please extend the same courtsey as they have done to you, and respect their right not to believe, and therefore not be bound by any of the constructs that mean so much to you. Yours is not the only way!!

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Is it negative because I do not agree?

How is my thinking closed minded? I have posted an article about how not everything can be explained. I have posted research.

Many atheists have been mocking in their posts towards those who have faith on this thread. Theirs is not the only way!!!

Yes I believe and others can choose not to believe. They are not bound my constructs and I am not bound by theirs. I never said otherwise.

I do think everyone should ponder the purpose of their existence but if they choose not to, that is fine. They can continue to enjoy their life. I have stated this numerous times

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Parker231 · 23/04/2025 14:57

switcheroooo · 23/04/2025 14:29

Without God, we fail. With God we succeed.

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Succeed in what?

BunnyLake · 23/04/2025 14:57

CloseEncountersOfTheTurdKind · 23/04/2025 14:55

A Christian is someone who has trusted in Jesus for forgiveness, so I assumed if you said you were a Christian that you believed you had been forgiven. What do you think a Christian is?

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Babies are born into Christian families and that is what they are until their critical thinking abilities kick in. Mine kicked in fairly early, what about yours?

Original poster

switcheroooo · 23/04/2025 14:59

ZoggyStirdust · 23/04/2025 14:53

Please don’t patronise that poster. This thread has been pretty respectful so far

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How is it patronising?

Sometimes it is the way something has been taught or how much one has delved into a subject. Just because one has been a Christian for years, it does not mean they understand it.

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Original poster

switcheroooo · 23/04/2025 15:01

BunnyLake · 23/04/2025 14:56

Thank you. Which is why I said I don’t think their god would approve such a response. It is rude, lazy and smug and unless their god does not mind those traits I’d suggest that poster says a few Hail Mary’s in repentance for their transgression.

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Questioning does not need hail mary's whatever they are.

God is not against asking a question. Neither is it a transgression.

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BunnyLake · 23/04/2025 15:05

@switcheroooo Please answer the question that has been put to you more than once. What do you mean by with god you succeed, without him you fail.

I stand by you being smug, patronising and rude when you said maybe I wasn’t understanding enough about Christianity for me to feel god in my life. Are you saying people need to study and get a degree in it or that god’s presence is only for those educated in him enough?

BunnyLake · 23/04/2025 15:06

switcheroooo · 23/04/2025 15:01

Questioning does not need hail mary's whatever they are.

God is not against asking a question. Neither is it a transgression.

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Does he approve of smugness and a patronising manner in his followers though?

Original poster

switcheroooo · 23/04/2025 15:14

BunnyLake · 23/04/2025 15:05

@switcheroooo Please answer the question that has been put to you more than once. What do you mean by with god you succeed, without him you fail.

I stand by you being smug, patronising and rude when you said maybe I wasn’t understanding enough about Christianity for me to feel god in my life. Are you saying people need to study and get a degree in it or that god’s presence is only for those educated in him enough?

Why is it smug, patronising and rude to ask a question? Plenty of people have asked questions on this thread. If someone does not like a question, does that make it smug, patronising and rude?

Why do you think you have reacted this way? Why has it upset you so much?

No one needs a degree to understand God. The signs are there if one deeply reflects on the world.

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Original poster

switcheroooo · 23/04/2025 15:15

BunnyLake · 23/04/2025 15:06

Does he approve of smugness and a patronising manner in his followers though?

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It is fine to ask questions. But why do you think you are interpreting something you do not like as smugness and patronising?

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ZoggyStirdust · 23/04/2025 15:17

switcheroooo · 23/04/2025 15:14

Why is it smug, patronising and rude to ask a question? Plenty of people have asked questions on this thread. If someone does not like a question, does that make it smug, patronising and rude?

Why do you think you have reacted this way? Why has it upset you so much?

No one needs a degree to understand God. The signs are there if one deeply reflects on the world.

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I think what’s coming over here is a feeling that you’re saying that poster (or anyone generally) who doesn’t believe, doesn’t feel god, is simply not doing it right and if they just tried harder/understood more they would.

that’s what lands as patronising. If you didn’t mean that then it’s be helpful to just acknowledge that’s how it lands

CloseEncountersOfTheTurdKind · 23/04/2025 15:18

BunnyLake · 23/04/2025 14:57

Babies are born into Christian families and that is what they are until their critical thinking abilities kick in. Mine kicked in fairly early, what about yours?

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That's not what the Bible says though. Being born in a Christian family doesn't make you a Christian. My brother isn't a Christian and he was born in. Christian family. I was 12 when I became a Christian. My children are not Christians. They will need to make that decision for themselves.

BunnyLake · 23/04/2025 15:20

switcheroooo · 23/04/2025 15:14

Why is it smug, patronising and rude to ask a question? Plenty of people have asked questions on this thread. If someone does not like a question, does that make it smug, patronising and rude?

Why do you think you have reacted this way? Why has it upset you so much?

No one needs a degree to understand God. The signs are there if one deeply reflects on the world.

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It hasn’t upset me it has made me roll
my eyes and reaffirm that ‘believers’ with your smug streak are enough to put anyone off wanting to share a heaven with such people for eternity.

I bet you think you’re on the right track don’t you. Lol

CloseEncountersOfTheTurdKind · 23/04/2025 15:22

ZoggyStirdust · 23/04/2025 14:54

I’m sorry you actually believe in a 6 day creation? A young earth?

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Yes, I do believe in a six day creation and a young earth and I do not believe this is contradicted by scientific evidence.
answersingenesis.org/evidence-for-creation/six-evidences-of-young-earth/

Six Evidences of a Young Earth

Without millions of years, evolution completely falls apart. Here are just some of many credible evidences from science that support a young earth.

https://answersingenesis.org/evidence-for-creation/six-evidences-of-young-earth/

Parker231 · 23/04/2025 15:22

BunnyLake · 23/04/2025 15:20

It hasn’t upset me it has made me roll
my eyes and reaffirm that ‘believers’ with your smug streak are enough to put anyone off wanting to share a heaven with such people for eternity.

I bet you think you’re on the right track don’t you. Lol

Edited

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I don’t care whether people are believers but why can’t they accept that life is good without religion and nothing negative is going to happen to us.

BunnyLake · 23/04/2025 15:25

ZoggyStirdust · 23/04/2025 15:17

I think what’s coming over here is a feeling that you’re saying that poster (or anyone generally) who doesn’t believe, doesn’t feel god, is simply not doing it right and if they just tried harder/understood more they would.

that’s what lands as patronising. If you didn’t mean that then it’s be helpful to just acknowledge that’s how it lands

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100% correct.

To insinuate someone hasn’t found god (even though they were brought up to) because they're not doing it right is pretty disgusting in my book. Which is why I stand by that poster needing to look a little deeper at themselves as they are not as on the ball with their christian ways as they might think. A little humility by them is needed, only they appear to believe they have it all sussed, if only others were as enlightened as them.

ZoggyStirdust · 23/04/2025 15:27

CloseEncountersOfTheTurdKind · 23/04/2025 15:22

Yes, I do believe in a six day creation and a young earth and I do not believe this is contradicted by scientific evidence.
answersingenesis.org/evidence-for-creation/six-evidences-of-young-earth/

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Ok I’m out

i have respect for christians who accept facts and try to make sense of their beliefs in that framework. Like saying that maybe god started all life and then it evolved, that the bible was not literally correct. Things like that

to come across someone who will disregard proven fact (and you can link to what you like, there is no evidence of a young earth and overwhelming proof of the age of the earth, and evolution) is surprising in the 21st century.

you cannot have a sensible debate with someone who will not accept proven fact.