Page 16 | to not understand why Christians think Jesus died for our sins?

switcheroooo · 2025-04-20T09:06:56+00:00

If Jesus died for everyone's sins, does that mean people are not accountable for their actions? You can kill people, steal and lie but have a protected status because Jesus died for your sins. How does this work? Why are people not responsible for their own sins? Where is the justice?

Leafy3 · 21/04/2025 01:10

Hello newcomers to this thread lol

BlackeyedSusan · 21/04/2025 01:18

NorthernGirl1981 · 20/04/2025 10:54

I’ve never really understood the timeline?

If God was the first ever Being and created the earth, why did he put dinosaurs on it? And if Adam and Eve were the first humans, why did they not appear for millions of years after the dinosaur era?

And how long after God created Adam and Eve and humans began to populate the earth did Jesus come along?

And all the people who died before Jesus came on the scene, what happened to them if there was no concept of Heaven and Hell at the point they died?

Do religious people not believe in evolution?

Which goes back to the point of why dinosaurs were the first creatures to inhabit the earth and what was God’s role in all of it?

It baffles me and I would love it explained to me.

I'll do my best from one Christian perspective but they are tricky questions.other people will have a different view.

Timeline:
God ( trinity of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit) existed before time/the world.
He/they created everything from nothing.

The creation story tells us about who created it not how. (Science will sort that bit out) It was written to contrast the other stories and cultures around at the time. For example some religions worshiped the sun as a god and the Christian/Jewish story is that the sun is not a god but a big light put there by the Christian god)

some Christians believe it was literally 6 days and the world is only 6000 years old. (They calculate from the somebody begat another when they were so many years old) They tend not to believe in evolution. Others believe the world was created by God but see the story as more symbolic and evolution was part of the process and dinosaurs were part of that.

I think 6 day creationists believe that the world was created with dinosaur fossils ready fossilized.

As for people who died before Jesus...

Many Christians believe that the death of Jesus was once for all time. Sort of backdated. Those that went before were saved by faith in God. There's a whole long list in the New Testament of old Testament characters having been saved by faith...(I think the book of Hebrews chapter 10 or 11 but I've not checked. )

There is a belief that God revealed himself bit by bit through history . That he foretold the birth of Jesus throughout the old testament. He used temporary means of sacrifices to symbolise the once for all time sacrifice of Jesus and as a stand in until that happened.

Christianity nowadays usually sees itself as starting from the creation of the world and diverging from Judaism when Jesus came along... rather than beginning with Jesus.

Some Christians interpret the Bible more literally than others or that it doesn't matter that it was written in a different culture and language in different styles of literature.

Also, as with anything involving humans, people will use it for their own ends and pick bits out of context to suit themselves and gain power over or abuse others.

Leafy3 · 21/04/2025 01:24

@BlackeyedSusan a neat summary

Did smile at at the sun being a "big light put there by...God"

Egglicious · 21/04/2025 02:56

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to question this esp atm. Like whilst eating an Easter egg you reflect on the fact that you are mindlessly consuming sugar & fat & cocoa in a shape similar to that rolled away from the tomb, from which Jesus is said to have emerged & ascended to heaven. I mean it is quite bonkers & puzzling trying to remember what it all symbolises & why!

MyHeartyCoralSnail · 21/04/2025 03:23

Ladamesansmerci · 20/04/2025 10:47

It's obviously nonsense, but from Christian perspective, repentance and asking for forgiveness is important. You are supposed to try and live as Christ lived. It's not a free pass to do as you please. You would need to be honestly remorseful as well. Christianity also prescribes to the idea we are born sinful (this is what original sin is), but this would mean unbaptised babies don't go to heaven, but for me that is incompatible with a supposedly all loving God. Like, theoretically, a school shooter who is genuinely repentant can go to heaven, but not a baby?

I'm a die hard Atheist, and my main issues are:

I personally think a God that apparently knows all there ever is or was is incompatible with free will. God would have foreseen Eve's betrayal, but went ahead and created her anyway. God will know who is going to believe, but punishes non-believers anyway.
Why create humans just to worship you? Especially knowing not all of them will, but then being mad about it anyway.
Suffering is a huge theological question and I've never heard anyone produce a sufficient answer as to why God lets so much suffering happen.
God is all loving? People should read the old testament. He's a wrathful tyrant. Also, Jesus is known for kindness to hated people like tax collectors and prostitutes, but we're expected to believe it's okay to be homophobic etc
Christianity is inherently misogynistic and has A LOT to answer for in terms of women's subjugation through history. We only need to look at US abortion laws to see that Christianity still has a significant impact on women.

If science could prove the existence of a creator, cool. But there is no way a Christian God exists.

Edited

It’s not a run of the mill Christian belief, ie no vicars going to say it in his sermon, but mdd as by more esoteric Christian (and other) belief systems would answer your points as follows.

God is One. God is everything but without anything else it is Nothing. Therefore in order for God to experience itself it had to create something else in order for it to contemplate itself. This every experience, one’s humans categorise as good or bad are just different aspects of God. This would include suffering. Every experience is equally valid to God because they are everything. Without pain there can be no joy without happiness no sadness. Without an opposite to measure something”s value there is no experience for man (as a reflection of God).

Science is a limited knowledge- it is only concerned with the mundane not spiritual God is beyond Space and time so is never going to be able to be subject to the laws of empiricism

The all loving god is an anthropomorphic view - God is everything - see the Old Testament.

MyHeartyCoralSnail · 21/04/2025 03:34

bridgetreilly · 20/04/2025 23:58

From that Wikipedia page: Also mainstream trinitarian Christians dispute labeling nontrinitarian groups as members within Christianity.

Generally they consider themselves Christian but no one else does. Unlike all the trinitarian denominations who recognise each other as Christian even if we disagree about some things.

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I don’t think the phrase “generally they consider themselves Christian but no one else does”, is not strictly true. A consensus about Trinitarianism took a few hundred years to form as a mainstay of mainstream Christianity, Trinitarians tend to not view those Christians who don’t believe in the Trinity as Christians- but that isn’t isn’t everyone. Trinitarianism is the orthodox view of Christianity not most certainly not the only one.

QuaintShaker · 21/04/2025 04:14

Egglicious · 21/04/2025 02:56

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to question this esp atm. Like whilst eating an Easter egg you reflect on the fact that you are mindlessly consuming sugar & fat & cocoa in a shape similar to that rolled away from the tomb, from which Jesus is said to have emerged & ascended to heaven. I mean it is quite bonkers & puzzling trying to remember what it all symbolises & why!

I certainly haven't heard that one before.

The most likely origin of Easter eggs were pagan celebrations of the spring equinox, and particularly the goddess Eostre (from where we name "Easter" likely derives). Pained eggs represented new life.

Christians adopted the practice, with the eggs becoming either a symbol of the empty tomb or the resurrection generally, haven't heard of them representing the boulder.

MyHeartyCoralSnail · 21/04/2025 04:23

QuaintShaker · 21/04/2025 04:14

I certainly haven't heard that one before.

The most likely origin of Easter eggs were pagan celebrations of the spring equinox, and particularly the goddess Eostre (from where we name "Easter" likely derives). Pained eggs represented new life.

Christians adopted the practice, with the eggs becoming either a symbol of the empty tomb or the resurrection generally, haven't heard of them representing the boulder.

Show quote history

I can remember the boulder thing being mentioned by Catholic nuns in school

Egglicious · 21/04/2025 05:08

MyHeartyCoralSnail · 21/04/2025 04:23

I can remember the boulder thing being mentioned by Catholic nuns in school

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Yes that where I heard this too at Catholic school taught by nuns.

Original poster

switcheroooo · 21/04/2025 08:22

Ihopeithinkiknow · 20/04/2025 23:37

Love all the posts that say “go online and research if you are interested” or “can’t wait to see the posts attacking other religions on their holy day”
it’s almost as if some Christian’s know it’s nonsense and see any question as an attack about what they believe in because it can’t be explained in a logical way so just look over there everyone at other religions

I don't understand why people keep saying this either. No one is attacking anyone's holy days.

I doubt the people who are saying when you are going to attack other holy days are Christian as one thing that one of the strengths about Christianity is love, peace and tolerance.

OP posts:

Original poster

switcheroooo · 21/04/2025 08:24

MyHeartyCoralSnail · 21/04/2025 03:23

It’s not a run of the mill Christian belief, ie no vicars going to say it in his sermon, but mdd as by more esoteric Christian (and other) belief systems would answer your points as follows.

God is One. God is everything but without anything else it is Nothing. Therefore in order for God to experience itself it had to create something else in order for it to contemplate itself. This every experience, one’s humans categorise as good or bad are just different aspects of God. This would include suffering. Every experience is equally valid to God because they are everything. Without pain there can be no joy without happiness no sadness. Without an opposite to measure something”s value there is no experience for man (as a reflection of God).

Science is a limited knowledge- it is only concerned with the mundane not spiritual God is beyond Space and time so is never going to be able to be subject to the laws of empiricism

The all loving god is an anthropomorphic view - God is everything - see the Old Testament.

Edited

Show quote history

If God is one, why are people saying Jesus is God, then there is the Holy Spirit. That is three.

Unitarians believe in one God. They reject the trinity which makes more sense to me,

OP posts:

RareMaker · 21/04/2025 08:26

BlackeyedSusan · 21/04/2025 01:18

I'll do my best from one Christian perspective but they are tricky questions.other people will have a different view.

Timeline:
God ( trinity of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit) existed before time/the world.
He/they created everything from nothing.

The creation story tells us about who created it not how. (Science will sort that bit out) It was written to contrast the other stories and cultures around at the time. For example some religions worshiped the sun as a god and the Christian/Jewish story is that the sun is not a god but a big light put there by the Christian god)

some Christians believe it was literally 6 days and the world is only 6000 years old. (They calculate from the somebody begat another when they were so many years old) They tend not to believe in evolution. Others believe the world was created by God but see the story as more symbolic and evolution was part of the process and dinosaurs were part of that.

I think 6 day creationists believe that the world was created with dinosaur fossils ready fossilized.

As for people who died before Jesus...

Many Christians believe that the death of Jesus was once for all time. Sort of backdated. Those that went before were saved by faith in God. There's a whole long list in the New Testament of old Testament characters having been saved by faith...(I think the book of Hebrews chapter 10 or 11 but I've not checked. )

There is a belief that God revealed himself bit by bit through history . That he foretold the birth of Jesus throughout the old testament. He used temporary means of sacrifices to symbolise the once for all time sacrifice of Jesus and as a stand in until that happened.

Christianity nowadays usually sees itself as starting from the creation of the world and diverging from Judaism when Jesus came along... rather than beginning with Jesus.

Some Christians interpret the Bible more literally than others or that it doesn't matter that it was written in a different culture and language in different styles of literature.

Also, as with anything involving humans, people will use it for their own ends and pick bits out of context to suit themselves and gain power over or abuse others.

Show quote history

But surely any creator would be a woman?

localnotail · 21/04/2025 08:28

switcheroooo · 21/04/2025 08:24

If God is one, why are people saying Jesus is God, then there is the Holy Spirit. That is three.

Unitarians believe in one God. They reject the trinity which makes more sense to me,

Show quote history

Trinity is one God - I appreciate that it might be a difficult concept for some to comprehend.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/zf9g4qt/revision/3#:~:text=comes%20from%20the%20words%20'tri,a%20central%20concept%20of%20Christianity.

The Trinity - The nature of God and Jesus in Christianity - GCSE Religious Studies Revision - Eduqas - BBC Bitesize

Learn about and revise the nature of God and Jesus in BBC Bitesize GCSE Religious Studies - Eduqas.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/zf9g4qt/revision/3#:~:text=comes%20from%20the%20words%20'tri,a%20central%20concept%20of%20Christianity.

Yaaaassssssqueeeeeennnnnslay · 21/04/2025 08:33

Ddakji · 20/04/2025 10:47

I thought God sacrificed his own son to stop people from performing animal sacrifices to him or some such.

Because ultimately God is a vengeful autocratic bastard.

This! Or just doesn’t exist at all - which is more likely…

Original poster

switcheroooo · 21/04/2025 08:38

RareMaker · 21/04/2025 08:26

But surely any creator would be a woman?

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Creator is genderless but He is used.

OP posts:

Original poster

switcheroooo · 21/04/2025 08:40

localnotail · 21/04/2025 08:28

Trinity is one God - I appreciate that it might be a difficult concept for some to comprehend.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/zf9g4qt/revision/3#:~:text=comes%20from%20the%20words%20'tri,a%20central%20concept%20of%20Christianity.

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Why does God need anyone else? It would make more sense if He is just one without the father, son and holy spirit.

OP posts:

localnotail · 21/04/2025 08:43

switcheroooo · 21/04/2025 08:40

Why does God need anyone else? It would make more sense if He is just one without the father, son and holy spirit.

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I think no matter what the answer you'd get, you will have more questions. Why Christianity exists? Why any religion exists? Why are they not simple concepts and not set up as you would like them to be? )))

Original poster

switcheroooo · 21/04/2025 08:47

localnotail · 21/04/2025 08:43

I think no matter what the answer you'd get, you will have more questions. Why Christianity exists? Why any religion exists? Why are they not simple concepts and not set up as you would like them to be? )))

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I am not looking for the concepts to be simple and set up the way I would like them to be. Many Christians themselves on this thread have stated it is complex and difficult to get your head around.

OP posts:

BunnyLake · 21/04/2025 08:48

LittlerCharlotte · 21/04/2025 00:47

The Harrowing of Hell. In the 3 days between death and resurrection, Jesus went into hell and saved everyone who'd been there before He died for us. Including Judas.

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Everyone, even heinous, disgusting abusers/murderers?

This doesn’t make sense either but I’ll come back to it as it’s too early and I haven’t had my coffee 😁

Original poster

switcheroooo · 21/04/2025 08:49

Just looked at this:

According to Jewish belief, God has many qualities:

One - Judaism is a monotheistic religion. According to Jewish teachings, God does not have multiple parts. God is one.
Omnipotent - God is all-powerful.
Omnibenevolent - God is all-loving.
Omniscient - God is all-knowing.
Omnipresent - God is everywhere at all times.
Transcendent - God is not limited in ways that humans are, eg he is beyond the constraints of time and space.
Immanent - God is present in the world and sustains it.
Eternal - God has always and will always exist. He is without beginning and without end.
The creator - God made everything in the universe.
The lawgiver - God created humans to live in a certain way, and he gave them many spiritual and ethical rules or laws. There are 613 of these laws in the Torah.
The judge - God will judge everyone and punish those who disobey his laws.
Merciful - God shows compassion.

This is much more clear than the trinity and trying to make three into one and one into three.

OP posts:

BunnyLake · 21/04/2025 08:52

It’s all just words though with zero action to back any of it up.

Anonymouseposter · 21/04/2025 09:08

On this thread people are trying to discuss complex theological ideas which have been discussed at length for centuries and are often using very simplistic arguments. According to a lot of people’s definition I would not meet the criteria for being a Christian because I don’t accept some of the dogma of their particular denomination. Some posters have obviously thought about things and decided that there is nothing more to life than what can be seen and proved and some of this group tend to sneer at anyone who disagrees with them ( I think it’s daft and you are daft for believing it). To anyone genuinely questioning I would not suggest talking to a spiritual leader, you could get more dogma. I would suggest walking on your own in the countryside, meditating , reading and praying and reading the poem “Last lines” by Emily Brontë. Give it time and see what comes up for you. I think OP’s question is complicated and there’s a lot of symbolism behind the story but I don’t read the Bible literally, it’s of it’s time and a mixture of history poetry and sometimes written for a particular audience.

Parker231 · 21/04/2025 09:22

Squirrelsnut · 20/04/2025 23:33

Jesus died for somebody's sins
But not mine
(Patti Smith)

Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine
Melting in a pot of thieves, wild card up my sleeve
Thick, heart of stone, my sins, my own
They belong to me, me
People said, "Beware", but I don't care
Their words are just rules and regulations to me, me

I was too young when it was released but discovered it in Uni. Patti Smith is brilliant.

Ladamesansmerci · 21/04/2025 09:56

MyHeartyCoralSnail · 21/04/2025 03:23

It’s not a run of the mill Christian belief, ie no vicars going to say it in his sermon, but mdd as by more esoteric Christian (and other) belief systems would answer your points as follows.

God is One. God is everything but without anything else it is Nothing. Therefore in order for God to experience itself it had to create something else in order for it to contemplate itself. This every experience, one’s humans categorise as good or bad are just different aspects of God. This would include suffering. Every experience is equally valid to God because they are everything. Without pain there can be no joy without happiness no sadness. Without an opposite to measure something”s value there is no experience for man (as a reflection of God).

Science is a limited knowledge- it is only concerned with the mundane not spiritual God is beyond Space and time so is never going to be able to be subject to the laws of empiricism

The all loving god is an anthropomorphic view - God is everything - see the Old Testament.

Edited

Show quote history

I've actually been to a couple of Christians where vicars have mentioned humans being born into sin! I actually had briefly had a Christian phase as a young adult, when I was very depressed/unwell, and forming my identity. I attended bible study 3 times a week, and took notes on sermons. The bible isn't unfamiliar to me. There may be different interpretations of the bible, but imo original sin is pretty clear. We are all born with the potential to sin.

I think 'God is nothing' is a specific theological viewpoint, that not all Christians believe. Wouldn't it be selfish for God to create everything just so it can contemplate itself anyway? I don't believe we need to experience significant trauma and suffering to experience joy. Sadness and the full range of human emotions, yes, but I can't believe a humane God would let us experience things like war and sexual abuse just because it allows God to experience itself.

Then there is no way of proving God. If the world is made in God's image as his great creation, there should be tangible evidence of God. If God is truly the creator and wants humans to love him as he loves them, why not just announce himself?

Even if there was a God, why should we have to worship him? I didn't choose to be born. All religion does worldwide is start wars, subjugates women and other minorities, and impacts our laws.

At the end of the day, it's called 'faith' for a reason, and that's because there is no proof and there likely never will be. I don't care what individuals believe if it brings them comfort, but religion and state should always remain separate.

localnotail · 21/04/2025 10:03

switcheroooo · 21/04/2025 08:47

I am not looking for the concepts to be simple and set up the way I would like them to be. Many Christians themselves on this thread have stated it is complex and difficult to get your head around.

Show quote history

Well, I also said this. What I'm trying to say its that this is what Christianity is, you either accept it or you dont! Each part of the Trinity has its own specific function, I think it was explained in the link I sent you. It is one God, it three different forms, so to speak. Like water can be ice, steam and liquid - same thing, different forms.