To think the school could do more to accommodate working parents

[Eastie77Returns]

By working I mean parents who do so out of the home (don’t want this to turn into a SAH/ working parents debate, I know all parents do work of some nature)

DD is going on a residential trip next week. Parents are asked to drop children off at the venue at 12.30 and collect them at the end of the residential “sometime between 12 and 3pm, we will let you know what time exactly on the day”

It’s pure bad luck that I have all day work meetings/training on both days. The residential venue is a short walk from the school and a number of teachers will be going from the school to the venue mid morning. I spoke with some parents who are also a bit stuck due to work commitments and we collectively e-mailed and asked if our children could be dropped of at school in the morning and then walk with the teachers to the venue. We were told no (no reason given). We asked if we could get some clarity around pick up time on the final day as 12 - 3 is quite a window of time and were told no as it depends on the weather and if the children do an outdoor activity on that day or not. We are to keep our phones on and look out for a text from the school. The school also often schedules meetings at 3.45 for example and there are other instances where they have organised events mid morning/afternoon.

I am very lucky to work for a flexible employer and I will somehow have to adjust my work schedule but some parents I spoke to work in retail, medical settings etc and do not have that option. AIBU to think the school could do more to take into account there are parents who cannot just start work in the middle of the day or up and leave at short notice to pick up their child?

It's just life.

Not everything will work exactly how you want it and be convenient for you.

We’ve just finished three years of one school trip a month that required us to wait in a dark car park to collect kids that might turn up any time between about 9pm-10.30pm and nobody could quite tell us when.

The assumption seemed to be that nobody worked evenings (I often work evenings) and everyone had a car (I don’t have a car)

I’d need to walk the 25 minutes to the large car park and stand there under my umbrella for anywhere between 5-90 minutes waiting for the DC to turn up. Because once the DC did turn up on the car park they would send a message on WhatsApp but the staff wouldn’t be happy if it took me a further 25 minutes to arrive there.

I started using it as evening exercise and spent the time going for runs on my own in the dark in the square of streets around the car park so I could get to the car park in a few minutes once the message arrived. Worked OK but wasn’t the best.

Lol. Another child has replaced DD’s friend and paid so what the school is doing is actual theft.

The parents have lost over £200 even though another parent has paid to replace their DD. Do you think they deserve that? We don’t even know where their money has gone since it is not being spent on the trip.

And Negative Points at DD’s school are dished out if you are e.g. 2 mins late to a class (regardless of reason), your school tie shows too many lines and isn’t sufficiently tucked into your skirt/trousers or you forget your homework diary. So you might think this child has been excluded for being insolent or misbehaving when in fact it might be because she had to go to the toilet as she was on her period and so was late to class or she momentarily forgot to tuck in her tie. The school applies a blunt instrument whereby x negative points for any reason leads to being banned from a trip.

What would happen if you just told the school you will be there at a certain time?

When pupils were selected to go (limited places so not everyone who wanted to go was able to) the school did make it clear that gong was dependent on ‘good behaviour and attendance’. They didn’t mention Negative Points specifically. I’m surprised the points are being used because even extremely conscientious pupils like DD pick up points.

Ain’t that the truth. That’s what I’ll tell DD’s teachers when I rock up to collect her at 10pm rather than ‘sometime between 12 and 3’

So they didn't specify a threshold for good behaviour and attendance? Not a certain number of Negative Points? Is there a way to lose those negative points once gained? If not, there is no reward to work towards. It all seems very unreasonable and unfair to me. I'd tell the parents of the banned child to dispute it and try to claim it back via their bank.

This isn't by any change a newly converted academy with a new head that wants a reputation for Being Strict? 🙄

These things that negative points are 'dished out for' are actually negative things though. Everyone who walks into a lesson 2 minutes late is a disruption. If there is no consequence and they get away with it, they'll be 3, 4, 5, 10 minutes late to every lesson.

The fact you seem to think these are petty is down to the fact they're also very easy things to just get right. Put your tie on properly. Arrive on time. (Wear your blazer. Being a pen. Listen...)

And to be clear, you think it’s ok for the school to steal the parents £200?

I think if there are no refunds, then there are no refunds, including the parents' £200. Same as if prohibited items are confiscated. It's ridiculous to keep referring to it as stealing when you are asking for extra admin because of your own inability to conduct yourself. And I'm guessing that there was no guarantee the place would be filled, the bill had been paid at the time the decision was made due to the child presenting issue.

But you haven't convinced me that multiple negative points aren't they much of a problem.

So broadly i think its school not a babysitting service. If you want childcare pay for it. This is about educating children not supporting working people.

However I think "sometime between 12 and 3 is unreasonable" really unreasonable. They wouldn't tolerate you picking the child up sometime between 3 and 5. I think they need to confirm a pick up time well in advance, and if they return early keep the kids in the assembly hall until alloted pick up

Can you specify how I’m asking for childcare/babysitting? I’m genuinely confused.

"OK thanks for clarifying, I'll drop her off, but just to let you know - as it's a school day anyway, I'll aim for 3pm collection no matter what!"

Because imo your post is even titled "To think the school could do more to accommodate working parents"

I genuinely think, its not the schools job to accommodate you or any parent. Schools are there to educate children, that's all. People can generally expect when they have children those kids will get schooling 5 days a week 39/40 weeks a year between 9 and 3. That's all. How we manage that is on us.

It might just be your title and you might just be on this one occasion, but broadly I don't think a school has a responsibility to accommodate parents working or otherwise.

But I do absolutely agree it's ridiculous to not specify a pick up time in advance. School or not they should be clear about when your children will need picking, its not reasonable to suggest taking them on a trip and not specifying when they will return

I’m still baffled.

What we are asking the school to do is ‘accommodate’ us by telling us what time the residential ends. And if children can walk home from the residential on their own. Is that babysitting/childcare?

We are also asking if children can attend school at the usual time (from 8.45am) per the legally mandated, school hours they are supposed to attend. Is that babysitting/childcare?

I don’t get it.

That is likely because she isn't one of the 11 and 12 year olds on the trip!

Genuine question, how does that work for 6th formers who don’t live with their family? I was on my own from age 16, living hundreds of miles from my family, whilst going to the local 6th form. What happens now in that situation? Back in the ‘90s no one ever asked for parents to sign forms / give permission for anything at 6th form!

Surely forms are all emailed/Google forms/on an app these days anyway. In pre-email days, as boarders we just learned to forge the parent's signature. I'm sure processes are more robust now.

OP yes it is frustrating - you'd think it would be easy enough for them to encourage early pick up but keep a supervised classroom or two for anyone who needs to stay until 3pm. Our primary school always did this. The only explanation I can think of is that it's a work to rule thing - perhaps they feel they'll have given enough by Fri pm and are reserving the right to claw back an hour or so if everyone's knackered, wet and grumpy by then. Or some of the more esoteric rules on trips often come about in response to previous complaints or incidents. I don't know, maybe a load of parents got together and sent in a joint complaint about their darlings sitting around too long in wet clothes when they could have come and picked them up early. Obvs just making that up.

@MockTheGeek that sounds similarly very frustrating and bizarre. It would have been SO easy for them to WhatsApp 15 mins earlier and/or allow students to message you en route. Again I wonder if you were somehow being "punished" for previous parental complaints of being kept waiting after they gave an ETA or something.

School schedule can’t really be to the workplace standard hours because children aren’t made to work as much.

the society made that both parents have to work. Employers need to be flexible. They will rinse you of any bit of money as long as children can’t be left alone home though :(

That's quite unusual @AllTheChaos so the school would hopefully be aware of the special circumstances.

I'm not sure what state schools do in that situation but the independent school I worked at for a while had in their terms and conditions that students must be living with a resident parent or guardian throughout the course of study, for precisely that reason. You did get parents trying to flout that.

Legally, schools have a duty of care to all students and that means at a very basic level they and parents need to be aware where students are during school hours (obviously with 6th form that could be that they're off site during free periods and lunch).

It's no excuse if something happens to say "oh they'd be fine, they are 18/they're nearly grown up" if no-one's tried to establish where they are.

Last time I had a child protection refresher we were told the most at-risk groups for safeguarding are babies under 1 and 16-18 year olds. The former because they can't tell you what's happening and the latter because assumptions are made they're OK.

I can see both sides here.
As an ex teacher, trips and residentials in the last decade have become over burdened with H&S risk assessment gone mad. This is why education staff are become less and less inclined to organise trips as they are a PITA, and it’s a shame as they used to be fun ( but hard work)
But your child’s secondary seem to be being very unreasonable and it’s all to do with rucksack contraband.
Far better to put the onus on parents checking kit, and saying any child found with a phone/ booze/ drugs will forfeit the right to go on the trip and parents will be notified to pick them up immediately with no refund. And it is parents responsibility to ensure their bundle of joy can go home and get in their house at whatever time it finishes, because a 12 year old can use a door key.
Then everyone can walk there and back to school if needed.
I hope the kids enjoy themselves and the weather is fine!

I think a lot of it is very petty and can lessen the respect for teachers
IMO good teachers don’t need all this nonsense
And very few people in work now were jacket and tie

True. I am not sure why the children are not going from school if the trip starts in the school day. Confusing. I suspect its cost + lack of enough teachers for required ratio?

My old school walked to a venue for a residential. We needed staff at the venue to set up for the children's arrival. We needed staff to take their cars there and return for the walk so there was a lot of ferrying staff to and from before school started. Staff walking with the children so needed to be in ratio. Then we needed staff to take the luggage and that car to have business insurance. While the walk was part of the trip and included map reading and saved money on a coach it was staff heavy.

As it’s secondary, you are being completely unreasonable. The children will be expected to make their own way there. There’s perhaps an argument for keeping them until the end of the school day but it’s not an unusual request and is normally down to 2 things - staffing and the fact that some parents are always late so a member of staff will have to wait at the venue with those children. On the issue of meetings, you’re being utterly unreasonable l. Secondary staff already do the longest hours on Earth ( commonly working until after 10 at night). If their time on school grounds has to be extended for a meeting then so be it but they absolutely should not have to hang around until 6:30!