To think the school could do more to accommodate working parents

[Eastie77Returns]

By working I mean parents who do so out of the home (don’t want this to turn into a SAH/ working parents debate, I know all parents do work of some nature)

DD is going on a residential trip next week. Parents are asked to drop children off at the venue at 12.30 and collect them at the end of the residential “sometime between 12 and 3pm, we will let you know what time exactly on the day”

It’s pure bad luck that I have all day work meetings/training on both days. The residential venue is a short walk from the school and a number of teachers will be going from the school to the venue mid morning. I spoke with some parents who are also a bit stuck due to work commitments and we collectively e-mailed and asked if our children could be dropped of at school in the morning and then walk with the teachers to the venue. We were told no (no reason given). We asked if we could get some clarity around pick up time on the final day as 12 - 3 is quite a window of time and were told no as it depends on the weather and if the children do an outdoor activity on that day or not. We are to keep our phones on and look out for a text from the school. The school also often schedules meetings at 3.45 for example and there are other instances where they have organised events mid morning/afternoon.

I am very lucky to work for a flexible employer and I will somehow have to adjust my work schedule but some parents I spoke to work in retail, medical settings etc and do not have that option. AIBU to think the school could do more to take into account there are parents who cannot just start work in the middle of the day or up and leave at short notice to pick up their child?

We’ve never had that. I don’t know what the response would be. It’s very unusual and would be dealt with via safeguarding team.

There was no checking in the 90’s. I was teaching then. If we went on a trip we’d drop some in the centre of town on the way home. Never be allowed to do that now.

But the mid 90’s was 30 years ago. So it can’t really compare.

This thread is mental! I sometimes think/hope that some of the people claiming to be teachers aren’t actually teachers and are just trying to fuel some teacher bashing.

if it was a trip abroad/ far away I could see the need for unusual drop off/ pick up times. For this trip, no way. You suu go could be allowed to drop them off in school at a normal time and collect them at the end of the school day.

I agree with another poster that I can only assume there is a nefarious bunch of people trying to use Mumsnet to give teachers a bad name.

Because no sensible, mature, professional would think it acceptable to come up with such arrangements for the end of a locally based residential

Good teachers do need 'all this nonsense' because they're managing 30 children at a time. They can't all just turn up when they want, having missed what will be needed later.

It's crap teachers who let these things go and let them get worse. In a classroom (or corridor) where the kids decide what happens, there are problems. Learning in big groups only happens well when everybody meets basic standards.

Equipment, punctuality, engagement and attitude are more important than uniform, but you don't seem to care about those. School uniform's not about practising wearing a suit later in life, but having some discipline and creating belonging. Not to mention reducing distractions of pupils' own clothes and the differences between them.

Regardless of the children's ages, the school still has to carry out a risk assessment and have enough adults to walk with them. I don't think the school is trying to be unreasonable, it's not easy organising activities off the school site

That's all well and good but none of that justifies the bonkers collection instructions where all the parents are meant to just wait for a text because the teachers don't have the respect to set a fixed finish time

I was at school in 1990s and recall the kind of scenario you describe when coming back from school trips. Day trips to France aged 11/12 where teachers waved us off to go and explore on our own. No-one had mobile phones, we just had to remember to meet the teachers in front of the Town Hall at the end of the day.

I can barely imagine the absolute outrage and AIBU threads on MN from parents if the above happened today. I wonder why though. Are children at greater risk of being abducted now than they were 30 years ago? Crime stats don’t seem to suggest that is the case.

I’m not trying to look back on the 80s/90s with rose tinted glasses. But we have become so emeshed in risk assessments and safeguarding that commensense has left the room. A PP argues that DD’s school is correct
to ban a group of children from walking 10 minutes from school to the residential on their own in broad daylight. Others are talking about 18 year olds needing permission slips to walk unaccompanied. None of this is healthy for children or young adults.

According to the app, Negative points are listed under ‘Lifetime Incidents’ so I don’t think they ever disappear.

No, not a converted academy. All the schools around here seem to have similar rules but none are academies.

So she'll be banished from school trips Forever, for the rest of the school career? Bizarre.

Think I can help, as a lecturer I am responsible for the students in my tutor group from when they arrive to when they leave. If a child got hit by a car in school hours ( I would be liable) so anything I can do to minimise that risk to me. I would definitely do to protect my family and home. It’s sad you say “ 🙄safeguarding” it’s just that safeguards both sides. For the safety of the child and school. The risk assessments are done by health and safety and we have to adhere to them, or risk been liable if something bad happens.

not given eta you can’t predict traffic and accidents on the road if you set a time and run late parents complain. So best to give a window. Save yourself the paperwork!!

I haven’t had time to read the whole thread so apologies if this has been covered but the school is legally required to provide a full-time education for your child and for them to be at school during school hours so they cannot make such demands legally. Simply inform them you’ll be dropping your child off at school at the normal time and collecting them from school at the normal time. It’s the school’s job to make arrangements for how to get children to and from trips to other locations and to ensure they are back at school for collection at the end of the school day. If they wish to give parents the option to drop them directly somewhere else during school hours or collect them early they can do so, but they certainly cannot demand this.

If the trips therefore mean hiring in additional staff like substitute teachers then fine, do that and increase the price if necessary. But the demands they are making to you are obviously totally unreasonable and they can’t seriously expect that most parents could accommodate such nonsense. You’d hope they’d also be aware of the fact they legally cannot make such demands.

School should be arranging transport to the venue. They should be allowing children who would normally walk to school by themselves to walk to the venue themselves. This is lazy on the part of the school.

Yes. Send them to a boardong school!!

Parents these days seem to want the state to pay for everyhing, including child minding, after school clubs etc.

They are your children. Deal with it.

Stop expecting other people to look after them. You can't have everyting. Great expectations and entitlement generation.

Maybe you and your partner could work fewer hours. Hell No. A drop in your beloved standard of living. Never!!!

They have - this is a valid transport method listed on the risk assessment choices.

This is not laziness on the school's behalf. Explain how you would risk assess this for unknown numbers, unknown SEND, unknown staffing, unknown ratios.

By all means don't be lazy and explain it away. With accurate ratios please x

It's not a 'normal school day'. Normally, children don't stay overnight.

Safeguarding means they need to discharge their duty (as a school) to parents. They can't just let kids wander off.

School could do more to accommodate working parents though, giving a solid finish time should be possible. I'm a teacher and I'm able to do this with local school trips.

I don't understand what you mean.

The school should be expecting parents to drop off and pick up at the same time as school pick up times. If they need the children to get to the venue or back from the venue, during the school day, they should be escorting the children themselves.

Everything else you've said there are standard legal requirements for.

• unknown numbers - this means they don't know which children are coming and which aren't. If they do they will know how many children are coming.
• unknown SEND - again only relevant if there are children on the trip who are brand new to the school. Otherwise they know because they know the students' needs.
• unknown staffing - you plan the staff who are coming and know you have the right number
• Unknown ratios - there are standard ratios for each age group. If they know the ages of the children that are coming, they know the and how many are coming then they can work out how many adults they need.

I don't know the numbers because I work in post 16 ed so we don't have ratios, but there will be a standard ratio for each age group.

What an absurd comment. It is literally the school’s legal obligation to “look after” children during all standard school hours (while also, ideally, educating them). They’re not doing anybody a favour by doing so.

You don't know or too lazy to look it up. The ratios are all posted online.

Unknown numbers walking because if some are going in the car how many are walking? You have no idea. So how many staff do you need if you have no idea how many kids are walking? Now can you provide me with a risk assessment explaining how you would risk assess for an unknown number of children being at two different places at two different times?

Unknown SEND - (you've misunderstood) again some SEND kids may walk, some go in the car so how do you provide support for SEND walking without knowing if they are or not? It isn't that you do not know the kids it is you do not know if they are walking or not. Do you provide support and extra staff/accommodations 'just in case'? Now can you provide me with a risk assessment on how to accommodate SEND children you do not know are walking? Please ensure all children with SEND are accommodated for both as a walker and as a car arrival - both need extra staffing for walking and for the venue so ensure you double up on staff.

Unknown staffing - how many staff do you need for an unknown number of children? Do you double up on staffing to ensure the whole amount are at the venue in case all come in a car or all need walking? You must ensure full staff at the venue AND full staff walking so if you need 3 staff members on the trip when all children are together you will need 6 to ensure there are 3 at the venue and 3 walking. Can a school afford to pay for 3 extra staff members?

You will also need staffing to transport bags. How many do you need? How many bags are being moved? Given you do not know how many kids are walking you will have no idea if you are transporting 3 bags or 30. How long will it take for 1 staff member to transport 3 bags in their car? How long will it take to transport 30 bags in the car with back and forth trips? How do you accommodate staffing to release someone for an unknown amount of time for this. Also which budget will the insurance come from as staff should not be out of pocket for getting business insurance on their car.

Unknown ratios - if you do not know how many children are walking then you do not know the ratio of children to adult to ensure staffing.

Now kindly share your risk assessment and how many staff you need to pay extra for this?

So double staff for walking and venue.
Double staff for SEND for walking and venue.
Staff for movement of baggage.
Staff at school for those at school.
Payment for insurance.

Or staff at the venue with SEND accommodated for.
Notice the difference?

There is no ETA needed. No traffic or accidents for school to worry about. They are on site at the residential which is 10 mins walk from the school and parents are picking up from the site. The school is refusing to confirm what time the pick up will be.

Re getting hit by a car, I understand the liability issue. I just think it’s ridiculous (not blaming teachers). The kids walk around crossing roads everyday. They are at no greater risk walking from the school to the site during school hours than they would be at any other time.

I don't understand how you think this is possible? People generally don't get to choose how many hours they work. Employers set those hours.

😂

That makes a lot of sense, especially the bit about who is most at risk.

Well as an update, the pick up was a lot of fun (not)😂 The weather was nice on the last day so the kids got to do the outdoor field activity. The text arrived just after 1.30pm requesting pick up between 2.30 and 3pm.

I had obtained permission to pick up DD’s 2 friends. Arrived to a scene of bedlam. Uppn approach there was a huge tailback of traffic because there is a single, one way track to access and exit the venue so cars trying to enter backed up whilst other cars were leaving. Unfortunately they backed up onto a narrow lane so it was chaos as there were cars wanting to drive past the residential venue in the jam with their drivers beeping and understandably fuming.

The most ridiculous aspect of all this is the kids could have walked via a field footpath, in the opposite direction to the road, and walked home or back to school to be met by parents if they had been allowed to leave alone.

The school might have learnt something for next year!