To think the school could do more to accommodate working parents

[Eastie77Returns]

By working I mean parents who do so out of the home (don’t want this to turn into a SAH/ working parents debate, I know all parents do work of some nature)

DD is going on a residential trip next week. Parents are asked to drop children off at the venue at 12.30 and collect them at the end of the residential “sometime between 12 and 3pm, we will let you know what time exactly on the day”

It’s pure bad luck that I have all day work meetings/training on both days. The residential venue is a short walk from the school and a number of teachers will be going from the school to the venue mid morning. I spoke with some parents who are also a bit stuck due to work commitments and we collectively e-mailed and asked if our children could be dropped of at school in the morning and then walk with the teachers to the venue. We were told no (no reason given). We asked if we could get some clarity around pick up time on the final day as 12 - 3 is quite a window of time and were told no as it depends on the weather and if the children do an outdoor activity on that day or not. We are to keep our phones on and look out for a text from the school. The school also often schedules meetings at 3.45 for example and there are other instances where they have organised events mid morning/afternoon.

I am very lucky to work for a flexible employer and I will somehow have to adjust my work schedule but some parents I spoke to work in retail, medical settings etc and do not have that option. AIBU to think the school could do more to take into account there are parents who cannot just start work in the middle of the day or up and leave at short notice to pick up their child?

That’s an aside.

Schools by law are meant to have children on premises in school hours. They can’t just decide not to because of a trip.

As mentioned in my first message, we sent one collective e-mail from multiple families. One. And we didn’t reply or argue when we received a reply.

I guess it depends on location and timings, but guides near us for example is a 20 minute walk away and runs from 8.30-9pm so not really suitable for a 12 year old girl to be walking back from alone. Even the oldest guides have to be picked up by a parent (they can't even wait in the car out of sight)
We're in a town not a city so I would guess that's fairly standard everywhere.

And it seems fairly standard for children from year 6 onwards to be going out as a group of friends quite often. Maybe because it's easier for them to arrange with having phones, or maybe because more mums work so preteens and young teens are having to occupy themselves more than in the past when they may have been spending more time with parents when off school.

Unfortunately if parents do point out that it might be sensible to adjust a rule, they are often shut down.

We sent one e-mail suggesting it would be a good idea to let parents know in advance when the residential finishes and also let children walk home on their own if they have parental permission to do so.

The responses from a few teachers/former teachers on the thread include:-

This is entitled behavior.

We are ungrateful parents.

The school is under no obligation to explain rules to parents.

We want the teachers to babysit our children and work unpaid hours (our suggestion would mean that teachers on the residential go home earlier than they currently will).

They hope the school cancels all future residentials because of our outrageous behaviour

And… “this is why I left teaching”.

These aren't the school rules they are the local authority rules when planning a trip. Transport must be specific and the risk assessment done for whatever mode of transport.

I'm sorry you've had a hard time here OP. Whoever did the risk assessment is not using common sense (some of us working in H&S still do!). You can ask to see the risk assessment, and see if the mitigation measurements they've taken are actually reasonable, or copied from a school trip to France with 5 year olds.

There’s no ‘demanding’

They can walk home. They just need the slip signing.

Also, a lot of trips come back in the dark/ late at night.

I disagree. A 1.30 finish is a precise time, the impact is much less, and is probably known about weeks or even months in advance.

Yeah, like I said, the usual teacher pity party.

I honestly think on Mumsnet, you could post to say that a teacher killed a puppy in front of your child's class and the response would be :

You're so ungrateful, that teacher works a 60 hour week and put in a lot of effort to source a wonderful educational opportunity for your children and all you do is complain that your child was upset. This is why I left teaching!

It's a residential so the teachers are giving up about 18 hours a day.

OP

Have you asked for reasons?

I totally get why the children are not able to walk with the teachers, the teachers might not be walking and they may have things to do before the children arrive. Having a few children around would need more planning and a risk assessment and possibly more staff.

Maybe the school should stop doing trips / residentials.

I am sorry but none of this justifies a wildly vague finish time, none of it.

If teachers don't want to do residentials, fine. But if they are running one then they need to run it like grown ups and have a clear finish time.

I voluntarily help run guide camps and we would never come up with such a nonsensical arrangement as this

My 17yo drives herself to and from sixth form. I cannot imagine a scenario where I would be required to collect her as that would involve me driving there (8 twisty country miles), giving permission for her to leave and then both of us driving home in separate cars?

Yes they can finish early under the circumstances, if it's communicated. We even finish early to set up for open evening after a morning of lessons. Even the OP has said if they'd just said 1:30pm, for example, that would be fine to plan for.

Not quite sure why all the discussion of 6th form safeguarding tbh. Not relevant to the OP.

However, I am a teacher, do risk assess trips and I've never heard of one with a 3 hour pick up window! Sometimes trips abroad we have to confirm return times on the day but that's understandable because there's traffic and ferries etc involved - this particular situation sounds completely avoidable. We would also dismiss students of this age to travel home independently (with permission) but (this part is important) not during core school hours.

And what I cannot fathom is..there are teachers on this thread who have said how difficult it is for them to juggle the demands of their job with their own children’s school activities. So they are fully aware that parents who work and have school aged DC have to navigate any number of challenges.

Yet several teachers on the thread think it’s utterly unreasonable for working parents to ask the school if our DC can come to school at the usual time on a normal school day and can they let parents know when the residential finishes.

I mean in any other sphere of life I think these would be considered completely reasonable requests.

Generally not the classroom teachers who make the strategic decisions though, but SLT (who could probably duck out to collect if they had to as they might not require cover).

We finished early for open evening too. But that was for a specific event that needed setting up.

We never finished early for kids returning from a trip. They went to lessons.

The reason they cannot tell us the finish time is ‘due to the weather’. Apparently they do not know what the final activity of the day will be as its weather dependent. It may or may not rain and the children may or may not be outside, split into teams and doing a specific activity which is quite time intensive and takes place across a large woodland area.

So they will finish at an unspecified time and all parents must keep their phones on from 12pm and wait for a text informing us what time the children finish. Then we must of course pick them up promptly. They described the pick up as a hotel check out style process where each child is handed to a parent/carer and children can not leave on their own.

I have never heard anything like it in terms of organisation. Year 7 children not allowed to walk home on their own. No set finish time.

Unfortunately I did not know about this before paying the (non refundable) £££ trip fee and DD is of course very excited about going.

This. I'm a teacher and it sounds like a nightmare to me. OP, usually I roll my eyes at threads with titles like yours, but actually I agree with you about the circumstances you describe. That's expecting too much flexibility from parents.

OP, I wonder if it might be worth sending an email saying if you have to cancel your DC’s attendance due to their late information about timing, you assume they will naturally refund you the cost in full?

They won’t, but maybe it might make them think about alternatives for the arrangements.

And this is a specific event that has already taken place. It's not on to expect people to work every minute for days on end without a bit of give. The open event thing is so that there's a reasonable break within a 12 hour day - teach all morning, work through lunch and afternoon and have an early tea before being on show all evening.

If classes have been collapsed to accommodate cover for the trip, there might be no usual lessons to return to without expecting the staff who've been away from their families and had little sleep to pick up teaching for couple of hours, when it would be reasonable to just let those kids finish.

No refunds, no exceptions. DD’s friend was barred from going after she collected too many Negative Points in the last few weeks. Her parents have already paid and the school will not refund them.

If classes have been collapsed there should still be somewhere to go.

We’ve had collapsed classes. Then they don’t go, or a lot don’t go and they are just put back up.

They added extra conditions after you entered a contract - that is unreasonable.

Maintained schools have to publish, as a statutory requirement, a charging and remissions policy. Are they following their own policy?

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/what-maintained-schools-must-publish-online#:~:text=guidance%20is%20available.-,Charging%20and%20remissions%20policies,-What%20schools%20must

Not your problem but was it made clear that Negative Points would mean no school trip? If I were the banned child's parent, I'd be taking that issue to the governors.

Good. There's got to be decent behaviour in school before a child can feasibly be taken out safely without concern. There should be consequences that are followed through for poor conduct and inability to follow simple rules, and if it's a pattern of not doing as asked, or a one off issue that necessitates removal in school, of course it will apply out of school. Enrichment / rewards are always contingent on acceptable behaviour and it's on the child and their parents to ensure that's in place or be removed.