To be devastated by what DS has done or am I over-reacting?

[Acunningruse]

Short version: DS (12yo) sent a message to a family friend’s daughter (call her Lucy) saying “mate I don’t like you so don’t put kisses on messages”
😢 I saw this when doing a random check of his phone, hit the roof and have banned his phone for Easter weekend and given him extra chores.

Long version:
DS (12) has struggled hugely with the transition from a tiny primary to big secondary school. He seems to be trying to be the big I am, the cool guy.

We are involved parents concerned about social media and we check his phone regularly. I am concerned about how he speaks to girls in messages- less respectful than he is with boys. He had a girlfriend for a short while but when they broke up he and his friends were name calling her (a play on her surname, eg her Surname is Bank…) she messaged him asking him to stop and he was unkind. I discovered the messages and made him apologise to her and he lost phone and gaming privileges for a week.

We visited these family friends a few weeks ago and the mum seemed to be “pushing DS and Lucy towards each other. Rather than leaving them to just be, it was “DS and Lucy, you go to the shop together, you both sit here to watch a film…” DS was mortified by this and kept saying afterwards I don’t want Lucy to think I like her in that way.

Lucy text DS yesterday with pictures of their holiday and DS response was “mate I don’t like you so don’t put kisses on messages “

I am hugely upset by this to think he could possibly think this is an acceptable way to speak to someone. Lucy is a very sweet very naive girl (suspect SEN) who would have been devastated to read this. Im hopeful i managed to delete the message before she saw it (no blue ticks) but I can’t be sure. I don’t know if I did the right thing by deleting I just wanted to spare her feelings.

when we confronted DS he just kept saying “I don’t want her to think I like her in that way”. We talked about men and women being friends, you can put kisses in messages and it doesn’t mean anything, but he was not as remorseful as we felt he should have been.

we go on holiday today and this has completely cast a shadow over it for me. Im terrified we are raising some kind of andrew Tate wannabe-despite us being the strictest parents ever around his phone and social media. Not to mention we are going away with friends whose kids will all have their phones so DS will be an absolute nightmare sulking about not having his but we feel we have to do something.

parenting a pre-teen is all new to us (DD is 9) and every other day I feel like we are getting it wrong.

Am I over reacting? under reacting? I haven’t slept in days (sick bug in house) and I just don’t know what to do any more.

People need to stop conflating the obvious not okay part - being rude to an ex - with the text to Lucy

The text was a bit blunt but would be praised if a girl sent it to a boy as her firmly setting boundaries. It wasn't like it said "I've told you I hate you, if you put any more fuxking kisses I'll make your life a misery" or "you're a weirdo, stop sending kisses" or similar.

Taking his phone and deleting the message absolutely gives the message "your feelings don't matter when it comes to girls, you can't assert a boundary with them because their feelings might get hurt" and "I don't care if your uncomfortable with how this relationship is being made to go, I care more about Lucy's feelings"

Those are more likely to lead to misogynistic behaviour

The time to really panic is if the behaviour becomes a pattern. I personally would be mortified if my son were so rude.....we don't have much, but I insist on manners, kindness and empathy.
It could just be that he felt awkward.
He's at the Kevin and Perry stage now so expect weird reactions and outbursts.
As long as you reiterate that you love him and will always be there if he needs you.
He will probably start to pull away a bit, but that's normal. Keep checking in with him, but give him some space.
I'm sorry to tell you it normally gets worse before it gets better.
All that matters is he knows you love him and you'll be right there no matter what.
Xxx

My take away from this is you discovered this "problem" by doing a random check of his phone?
These sorts of exchanges used to be notes or conversations, which you would never have discovered- it is micromanaging on the grand scale-you trust him to have a phone , so trust him.
His message to this girl was blunt, but understandable- you have to accept that you are not the only influences in his life. He will upset girls as a normal part of the growing up process, and boys too , probably- this is not something you can, or should police.
School children are often vulnerable, and often hurt it is a part of life.
You can only affect your son's attitude to women by example- you can't tell him what to think.

If he meant "I don't like you" as in " i don't fancy you " then his text isn't even rude just blunt. If he means "I hate you" then that's rude and unkind. But in and of itself not really a worry.

what is more concerning is his unkindness to girls in general. He needs firm consequences for this and to learn about kindness and how to be assertive in a way that's polite.

Good on him for setting a boundary with Lucy. it's much better to be honest than not to give false hope. Children should never be afraid to say to another kid "no."

Raising an andrew tate wannabe?

Oh please!

The message you're sending him is his boundaries domt matter, if he enforces them with females he's a misogynist.

You're wrong.

It's hardly encouraging empathy. Where is the mum's empathy towards her son?

This is how I feel about it too. Why should anyone be friends with let alone romantically involved with people they aren't interested in?

I hope that there is not an expectation that DS must like Lucy because she may be neurodivergent because that is ableism.

I also agree he’s using the word “like” in the fancying sense not general. “I don’t fancy you so stop using kisses”.

Helicopter mum, sorry. This is not serious.

It certainly sounds like he's expected to like her because she ND which is not ok

This.

I don’t think it’s fine to tell people how to write their messages. Kisses are a perfectly reasonable thing to add and may people add them to almost any messages. That’s up to them. He doesn’t get dictate how others act or express themselves. If he doesn’t like them then he needs to learn to get over himself and realise that he isn’t in charge of anyone else and what they do. And as the pp said it’s very big headed of him to jump to the conclusion this means she is attracted to him.

The kisses are an irrelevance though really (unless there’s a backstory we don’t know about). He’s uncomfortable because the other mother was trying to push them together (in his eyes). As you said this isn’t because of the reason he jumped too, instead it’s because the other mother is concerned about her daughter and her friendships/fitting in.

Rather than punishing I think you should be talking this all through with him. Teaching him not to jump to conclusions about motives, and some empathy towards others, plus talking about using tact and diplomacy when he dies need to deliver a message that might hurt some else’s feelings. He also need to understand that he can’t dictate to others what they do and how they talk to him. He can only control himself and what he does, not other people and certainly not women and girls.

I think it’s appropriate to distinguish the two incidents. Teasing an ex girlfriend with his mates - unacceptable and you made that clear to him. He would have known when he was doing it that it wasn’t OK. The overly blunt message I think is quite different. It wasn’t intended to cause hurt or upset and I think his response shows that he was just trying to make the girl understand that he didn’t like her “that way”. A different response is warranted where you talk to him about how we communicate things and how it might feel to be on the receiving end. Nothing wrong with him clarifying his feelings but he needs to learn how to do it kindly. He’s only 12 so…I don’t really think taking his phone away is a fair punishment given that it doesn’t seem that he intended anything bad. I’d give it back on condition that he works with you to write a message to this girl. Get him to think about what would be a better er way to say it and give suggestions if he struggles (but let him think about it first)

This

. I am concerned about how he speaks to girls in messages- less respectful than he is with boys. He had a girlfriend for a short while but when they broke up he and his friends were name calling her (a play on her surname, eg her Surname is Bank…) she messaged him asking him to stop and he was unkind. I discovered the messages and made him apologise to her and he lost phone and gaming privileges for a week

I applaud your stance. If I was the parent of his ex-girlfriend I would have been furious. Your reaction was caring and responsible. You're probably right about him showing off to friends in an effort to be popular. Experts advise that this is the age when boys no longer view girls as "friends" and it is important to teach them to respect females. If more parents were as aware and responsible as you, young women wouldn't have to be so afraid.

I don’t think it’s fine to tell people how to write their messages. Kisses are a perfectly reasonable thing to add and may people add them to almost any messages. That’s up to them. He doesn’t get dictate how others act or express themselves. If he doesn’t like them then he needs to learn to get over himself and realise that he isn’t in charge of anyone else and what they do. And as the pp said it’s very big headed of him to jump to the conclusion this means she is attracted to him.

I find it fascinating that this paragraph is used in something very militant feminist. Because it's almost word for word how men react when called out for behaviour that they don't think is problematic. "He needs to learn to get over himself."

Rewriting this:
I don't think it's fine to tell people what to say. Wolf whistling is a perfectly reasonable thing to do and many men do it all the time. It's up to them. She doesn't get to dictate how others act or express themselves. If she doesn't like it then she needs to learn to get over herself and realise she isn't in charge of anyone else and what they do. Its very bigheaded of her to jump to the conclusion this means she's pretty enough for me anyway

OP's son set a boundary with a DIFFERENT girl regarding their friendship/relationship because he is basically being pushed to be friendly/more with her and he doesn't want this

Punishing him for that sends the wrong message entirely

I think he did interpret it as more than being friends and TBH I can see why and why he might have felt pressured especially if his parents didn't intervene sufficiently. Was the girl a victim in this as much as he was? maybe. Could he have asked for help to phrase it better? Again maybe but he might have felt that he wouldn't have got that help. "Devastated"? Get a flaming grip!

You sound really micro managing tbh, and that sort of thing never ends well.
Of all my children's friends, the ones with overbearing parents are the ones that lead very double lives.
Let him be himself with you. No one's perfect, we're all on a massive learning curve in life. By all means call out poor behaviour but guide him and let him decide how he proceeds. If he has good adults around him that show respect to one another and to him, he will grow up to be decent. Trust in yourselves as role models and him as a decent lad.
If a boy sent my 12 year old daughter texts with kisses and it made her feel uncomfortable, I would not have a problem with her telling him.

As usual, I'm going to play devil's advocate here.

My DS is 11 (only just, beginning of April) and the way in which he speaks to his DS is disgusting sometimes. Often, actually like she's a bit of shit on his shoe. Sometimes I get it too.
It's really unacceptable.

My DS is neurodiverse, not that it gives him the right to be shitty. I'm saying it because he is a reactive person and emotional.
Is your son like that at all or is it just the way in which he speaks to females?

@TessTimoney
I agree.

I think it's likely this boy sees girls as a means of enhancing his status in the world of boys.

Getting a girlfriend and then mocking her after the breakup would have given him points in the competition for status.

'Lucy' is a low status girl, not the sort of girl who 'brings much to the table' (as online misogynistic would say). He therefore treated her badly, making sure there was no hint of any kind of relationship between them. Lucy would have dragged him down in status.

His ongoing other disrespectful communications with girls are also a means to gain status among the boys.

I agree with the OP that this boy has all the makings of a teenage shit.
He may have fallen into bad company.
He may be getting access to misogyny online.
Either way, he's in dire need of a positive and productive alternative to spending time with the mates.

Sadly the status thing is a thing for both sexes, especially for the kids that strive to be popular.
A lot of girls are actually offended that a “low” status boy dares to fancy them .

When I was about 10, my dad’s girlfriend had a nephew who visited regularly. We were about the same age.

My dad’s girlfriend had encouraged him it would be sweet if we were BF and GF. I didn’t like him that way at all, though didn’t have anything against him generally.

His behaviour escalated to singing love songs to me, which I found creepy, insisting we were BF and GF, despite me repeatedly telling him we weren’t.

It culminated in him forcibly kissing me, which upset me so much I’ve largely blocked out the memory. From what I do remember, I think I ended up shouting some very harsh words about him not being my boyfriend. He visited a lot less after that.

With hindsight, I expect the experience was mortifying for him too, as he’d been encouraged by an adult he trusted that his behaviour was acceptable. It was an upsetting and very uncomfortable experience for me, and I wish I’d been educated on setting boundaries earlier.

Your son did the right thing OP, even if clumsily. It’s icky when adults try to force children into relationships.

You are hugely overreacting. He's just a kid. Talk to him about hurting peoples feelings, and forget about Andrew Tate. It was cruel to remove his phone. Calm down and respond to him as a boy, not as an incel in waiting.

He didn't like it, he told her. Blunt and to the point. Nothing wrong in that. Maybe someone should be telling her not to put kisses on things as that could be seen as out of order and making people feel uncomfortable. He stood up for his feelings and you shot him down. No one is taking into consideration how Lucy's message made him feel, only how his message made Lucy feel. Works both ways. Huge over reaction.