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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Sending love to trans people on MN and beyond

825 replies

cassandre · 17/04/2025 20:58

This isn't an AIBU. I just wanted to send love to trans people, in the UK especially, and to other members of the LGBTQIA+ community.

This hasn't been the easiest week for trans people, but there are a lot of us out there who accept you for who you are. We have your backs and we believe that eventually, tolerance and compassion will win.💖💖💖

Love from a longtime MNer and trans-inclusive feminist.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
StandFirm · 25/04/2025 11:10

Helleofabore · 25/04/2025 10:16

Yes, we can see that from your post.

Did you stop to think that there is already laws around rape and sexual abuse? The issue of course, is huge and it needs attention. However, you are here scolding people that they are not focusing on the issues that you, personally, want to see resolved. We see this all the time.

I will ask you the question that I ask others, when would have been the right time in your view? And how many women and children were acceptable to be harmed due to poor policy sold in by organisations such as Stonewall? And by that, I mean in addition to the huge number of raped and assaulted women and children that are actually covered by laws and policy .

And to be clear I refer to the rape, voyeurism, drink spiking, trafficking. All horrific crimes.

And yet, you keep dismissing the issue as 'just a small group', and even 'genuine trans people' (who are they? The only concept that ties all people with transgender identities together is their philosophical belief. So who are these genuine trans people?). Yet campaigning for this 'just a small group' have created very poor safeguarding policies and protocols that are very far reaching.

Imagine, that if a female person needed to escape to a women's refuge to heal, they may have to share with a male person. We have already heard testimony from those female people in the UK where one had to endure a male wanking in the next bed in a shared room in a refuge and others had to deal with males who demanded special treatment while there and abused women for not using correct language.

Imagine that a female person seeks help from a rape crisis centre, as Sarah Summers did and is taking them to court, and not being offerred female only rape support groups. She had to deal with male people in the group. We also know the trauma being caused with male prisoners being in female prison estates.There are many posts on MN about female people having issues in communal changing rooms.

Then there was the bench book which demanded that female people had to call their rapists, she/her and talk about 'her penis'. And there were female prisoners who got extra jail time because they called a male person with a transgender identity 'he' and 'a man'.

You talk about about boundaries, yet don't seem to acknowledge that boundaries are erased as soon as a child or an adult is told that they must accept male people into female single sex spaces, and that a person of one sex is to be treated as the other sex. All based on their philosophical belief. That is the removal of boundaries.

Yes, we understand that male people will still enter spaces they should not be in. No fucking kidding. What laws are there that people 100% comply with, yet you are telling us that because these crimes will still happen that we should not have been closing up the safeguarding loopholes and demanding clarity in the law Because you perceive the issue to be a minor one, to be dismissed as 'just a few' and 'genuine trans people'.

But at least now there is clarity and those harmful policies that were shaped by Stonewall and others need to be reversed.

You might not have intended your post to be shaming or you might not have realised you are using tired old tactics from extreme trans rights activists in repeating their sound bites that are thought terminating and about causing distraction, but you did just that.

So, according to you, when would have been an acceptable time for feminists to work for clarifying the law? In 10 years? 20 years? Do you see the rape crimes, spiking, voyeurism etc ever letting up?

But instead you feel that feminists and women's rights campaigners should ignore what was happening and focus on the issues that you feel were the only ones they should be addressing. Ignoring that they were addressing them as well. That is shaming.

What we can agree on is that the cases you mention all refer to men who highjacked the identity of a marginalised group (trans) to prey on another vulnerable group (victimised women in shelters or women in support groups). I am certainly not condoning that and I refer to them as pervs because that is what they are and no they don't belong in those spaces. I think the vagueness around self-ID did everyone a great disservice. Is everyone genuine who claims to be a woman? probably not, and I am not denying that. However, whilst I am not trying to dictate to you what to think, allow me my opinion: I don't think trans-women are inherently a threat to women but reading various threads and comments that's what you'd think. In the meantime, rapists at large have impunity. I have no time for them, they're the people I loathe and want to see behind bars. I accept that you and other women's rights campaigners feel very strongly about women-only spaces - and perhaps the notion of distraction was clumsily worded on my part- but I am sceptical about how effective it is ultimately. I also don't think enough is being done to increase the conviction rates in rape cases. It's a pure disgrace.

I also completely disagree that gender dysphoria is simply a philosophical belief. I don't know a single transperson who just made that choice one day. I can't claim to know very many but I have seen one grow up in my close circle. It's something they'd carried with them forever. I also do believe that diagnosis of the condition must be done very carefully because of the serious long term implications in terms of physical and mental health. It is a genuine condition which for the sake of everyone deserves to be better researched and understood.

Helleofabore · 25/04/2025 11:25

StandFirm · 25/04/2025 11:10

What we can agree on is that the cases you mention all refer to men who highjacked the identity of a marginalised group (trans) to prey on another vulnerable group (victimised women in shelters or women in support groups). I am certainly not condoning that and I refer to them as pervs because that is what they are and no they don't belong in those spaces. I think the vagueness around self-ID did everyone a great disservice. Is everyone genuine who claims to be a woman? probably not, and I am not denying that. However, whilst I am not trying to dictate to you what to think, allow me my opinion: I don't think trans-women are inherently a threat to women but reading various threads and comments that's what you'd think. In the meantime, rapists at large have impunity. I have no time for them, they're the people I loathe and want to see behind bars. I accept that you and other women's rights campaigners feel very strongly about women-only spaces - and perhaps the notion of distraction was clumsily worded on my part- but I am sceptical about how effective it is ultimately. I also don't think enough is being done to increase the conviction rates in rape cases. It's a pure disgrace.

I also completely disagree that gender dysphoria is simply a philosophical belief. I don't know a single transperson who just made that choice one day. I can't claim to know very many but I have seen one grow up in my close circle. It's something they'd carried with them forever. I also do believe that diagnosis of the condition must be done very carefully because of the serious long term implications in terms of physical and mental health. It is a genuine condition which for the sake of everyone deserves to be better researched and understood.

Please answer my question. When would it be acceptable for women's groups to have focused on this issue in your opinion?

10 years? 20 years? Ever?

TheKeatingFive · 25/04/2025 11:26

Is everyone genuine who claims to be a woman? probably not, and I am not denying that.

I'm asking this in good faith, but how does anyone 'genuinely' claim to be a woman? What exactly do you mean by that.

What is the difference between a genuine claim and a ungenuine claim?

Helleofabore · 25/04/2025 11:34

StandFirm · 25/04/2025 11:10

What we can agree on is that the cases you mention all refer to men who highjacked the identity of a marginalised group (trans) to prey on another vulnerable group (victimised women in shelters or women in support groups). I am certainly not condoning that and I refer to them as pervs because that is what they are and no they don't belong in those spaces. I think the vagueness around self-ID did everyone a great disservice. Is everyone genuine who claims to be a woman? probably not, and I am not denying that. However, whilst I am not trying to dictate to you what to think, allow me my opinion: I don't think trans-women are inherently a threat to women but reading various threads and comments that's what you'd think. In the meantime, rapists at large have impunity. I have no time for them, they're the people I loathe and want to see behind bars. I accept that you and other women's rights campaigners feel very strongly about women-only spaces - and perhaps the notion of distraction was clumsily worded on my part- but I am sceptical about how effective it is ultimately. I also don't think enough is being done to increase the conviction rates in rape cases. It's a pure disgrace.

I also completely disagree that gender dysphoria is simply a philosophical belief. I don't know a single transperson who just made that choice one day. I can't claim to know very many but I have seen one grow up in my close circle. It's something they'd carried with them forever. I also do believe that diagnosis of the condition must be done very carefully because of the serious long term implications in terms of physical and mental health. It is a genuine condition which for the sake of everyone deserves to be better researched and understood.

So, to you a genuine trans person is unexplainable. You think that gender dysphoria is not a philosophical belief? Do you have evidence that there are any biological or neurological markers? Because if you do, please send them to all the international countries who were doing reviews about the treatment for gender dysphoria because they must of missed them. Haven't you heard, transgender academics have stated there is no medical problem to be resolved in being transgender?

You have declared it is a genuine condition which would get you labelled as transphobic by some people. I agree though that anyone who has gender dysphoria needs support, however, the support should not be to demand that society treats that person as if they are who they believe they are. (It is the believing who they are that is not reflected in material reality that makes it a philosophical belief by the way) So, you can disagree all you like. That doesn't change the reality.

I don't think enough is being done to get justice for rape victims nor to reduce rape numbers. However, women's groups don't exist to carry out your priorities and it is very arrogant of you to shame them for not focusing on your priorities only.

However, in all your posting, you seem to not be able to acknowledge that male people with transgender identities are male people.

'I don't think trans-women are inherently a threat to women but reading various threads and comments that's what you'd think.'

Male people with transgender identities have the same risk profile of committing sex offences as the rest of the male population of the UK. I can post you the prison convictions for male people with transgender identities if you want to see them. You seem to not be able to define exactly what changes a male with a transgender identity to not be exactly the same as a male without a transgender identity. Do you believe that there is some magic process that means they are no longer a risk to female people and children? Is that based on your experience of lovely people with transgender identities?

And no. A male person without a penis, is still a male person and they can be just as violent and abusive as any other male person with a penis. Plus over 95% of male people with transgender identities are rather attached to their penises and have no intention of removing them. As I said, not that it matters anyway.

You can declare all you like that female people are not at risk of harm from male people with transgender identities. It seems to me that you are ill informed and determined to ignore the evidence that is out there.

Helleofabore · 25/04/2025 11:36

And no male person can ever experience life as a woman. They can only ever experience life as a male person who believes they are a woman.

Even when they 'act' like a woman, they are acting as they believe a 'woman' should act. Which is fucking misogynistic!

Even if they are treated 'as a woman' by some people, they are being treated as a 'male who presents as a woman and believes they are a woman'. Because their every reaction is based on that. Not on them being female in any way.

Even when they have extreme body modifications, it is to be their own concept of what a female looks like to them. It is not what a female is.

How can it be?

The only way a person can experience life as a woman, is to have a female body, formed around the production of large gametes, even if it doesn't produce those and to navigate their life based on the decisions they and society makes that revolve around them having that body.

A male can conceptualise what it might be like to be a female, but that is all it ever is - their concept of being female.

They may do it because they don't feel they fit into how they conceptualise how a male person interacts with the world (ie. their own stereotypes around being male) or they do it because they want to be seen as a female (using their own stereotypes of how a female navigates life). It really doesn't matter though. Their motivation is irrelevant to the outcome. And I consider the outcome can only be described as misogyny.

Which is that they will always be just a male who believes they are something they are objectively not.

How can the material reality be any different? This is why someone's gender is only based on someone's philosophical belief. And philosophical beliefs are fine for people to hold, but not one person in the UK has to comply with another's philosophical belief.

The logic cannot be any different than that I am afraid. But apparently, we should just let these male people into female single sex spaces.

Helleofabore · 25/04/2025 11:39

'I don't think trans-women are inherently a threat to women but reading various threads and comments that's what you'd think.'

I have been abused by male people with transgender identities. Do you think that I should or that I should not be able to go into a space that I believe is female only and feel safe there, or not?

Helleofabore · 25/04/2025 12:00

I think that there are some people still grappling with the incoherence of the concept of what being transgender means. It would explain why we see contradictory and incoherent positions being posted still.

On one hand, people have this belief that if someone believes they are the opposite sex to their material reality, then that person must be right. How? It is impossible that any person is born 'in the wrong body'. It is impossible that any male person can understand what it is to have a female body, which is the only way that a female person is a female person. Unless you are someone who believes in postmodernism and gender theory.

But what other groups of people should we be allowing to not only redefine language to suit themselves, but to also that we should treat as if their belief is material reality? And there is no evidence at all that being transgender has any biological or neurological markers.

How about those who sincerely believe they are lizards and get extreme body modifications to suit this? Are they lizards? If not, why?

How about those who sincerely believe that they are not the age they material are? Should we allow those who believe they are children to go back to school? Should we allow those who believe they are 85 to claim aged pension when they are 20?

Yet, this one group of people are centred in policy as being what they say they are? Why? I reckon, it is that other sound bite that we see so much of. The 'but we really don't know that much about the sex categories of humans and we could one day find something'.

And so, because we don't have any evidence that there is anything biological or neurological, all that is left in emotional manipulation. Such as shaming feminists, and false declarations that male people with transgender identities are not a risk to female people based on nothing but emotional reasoning.

StandFirm · 25/04/2025 12:28

Helleofabore · 25/04/2025 11:39

'I don't think trans-women are inherently a threat to women but reading various threads and comments that's what you'd think.'

I have been abused by male people with transgender identities. Do you think that I should or that I should not be able to go into a space that I believe is female only and feel safe there, or not?

I will get back to your other points and questions later when I have time to formulate a considered response but I just wanted to say that I have complete sympathy with anyone else who has experienced abuse.
I also think you should feel safe everywhere.

Re genuine v non-genuine - based on the cases mentioned upthread, I don't completely dismiss the possibility that some people might pretend to adopt a trans identity to fulfil their sick fantasies. There might also be some trans people who are sexually abusive (like in any population group). There are also trans people who are genuine, which means that it is their lives, intrinsically who they are, and that they are not doing anything to harm women.

Re condition - it is a condition insofar as the transition is so medicalised (hormones and surgery).
And the dysphoria itself is not a philosophical choice. I can accept that some people feel the same conviction in their core being that I've always had about being a girl- but misaligned with their biology. It shouldn't be contentious but I think it makes them fundamentally different from other men and women.

Nameychangington · 25/04/2025 12:49

StandFirm · 25/04/2025 12:28

I will get back to your other points and questions later when I have time to formulate a considered response but I just wanted to say that I have complete sympathy with anyone else who has experienced abuse.
I also think you should feel safe everywhere.

Re genuine v non-genuine - based on the cases mentioned upthread, I don't completely dismiss the possibility that some people might pretend to adopt a trans identity to fulfil their sick fantasies. There might also be some trans people who are sexually abusive (like in any population group). There are also trans people who are genuine, which means that it is their lives, intrinsically who they are, and that they are not doing anything to harm women.

Re condition - it is a condition insofar as the transition is so medicalised (hormones and surgery).
And the dysphoria itself is not a philosophical choice. I can accept that some people feel the same conviction in their core being that I've always had about being a girl- but misaligned with their biology. It shouldn't be contentious but I think it makes them fundamentally different from other men and women.

You seem to be in the phase of thinking that 'really trans' is a thing. It isn't. There's no definition and no criteria for being trans - if you say you are, you are, no questions. So the rapist who discovers his inner woman identity right before his trial is just as trans as the man who has been called Susan worn dresses and quietly gone about his life for 45 years.

Susan genuinely feeling he is a woman doesn't make him one, however much he believes it, because being a woman isn't an idea it's a biological reality. Anorexics genuinely believe they need to lose weight.

The idea that Susan, whose identity is sincerely held, is 'not doing anything to harm women' isn't true either. Susans presence in women's spaces mean some women can't use their own spaces any more, eg Orthodox Jewish women can't go to the women's swimming pond if Susan's there. Susan's belief is sincere but others don't share it, and Susan's use of the women only space leaves them with nothing, which harms them. Allowing Susan in also allows the males with bad intentions in, because there's no external way to tell Susan from Isla in practice, so that harms women too. And I personally believe that reinforcing the idea that wearing dresses is what makes you a woman, harms women too, it reduces us to appearance and it teaches children that pink and dolls= girls and blue and cars= boys.

Lastly,gender dysphoria exists but I don't think going along with it helps the dysphoric person, and it's out of step with how all other mental illness is treated. So we're selling transpeople short if they're not getting the best more useful treatment for their emotional and mental struggles. And of course, you don't have to have dysphoria to be trans anyway.

Helleofabore · 25/04/2025 13:13

StandFirm · 25/04/2025 12:28

I will get back to your other points and questions later when I have time to formulate a considered response but I just wanted to say that I have complete sympathy with anyone else who has experienced abuse.
I also think you should feel safe everywhere.

Re genuine v non-genuine - based on the cases mentioned upthread, I don't completely dismiss the possibility that some people might pretend to adopt a trans identity to fulfil their sick fantasies. There might also be some trans people who are sexually abusive (like in any population group). There are also trans people who are genuine, which means that it is their lives, intrinsically who they are, and that they are not doing anything to harm women.

Re condition - it is a condition insofar as the transition is so medicalised (hormones and surgery).
And the dysphoria itself is not a philosophical choice. I can accept that some people feel the same conviction in their core being that I've always had about being a girl- but misaligned with their biology. It shouldn't be contentious but I think it makes them fundamentally different from other men and women.

'it is a condition insofar as the transition is so medicalised (hormones and surgery).'

So people who get cosmetic surgery are treating a 'condition'? Those people having extreme body modifications to resemble a lizard have a 'condition'? Because a clinician agreed to change that person's body so they would be more comfortable in life?

Do you see the lack of coherency? Perhaps it is because you equate a doctors willingness to do something as being a 'medical need'.

Sure, dysphoria is not a choice. But do you see the incoherency of this argument? But I will use this to highlight the issues if you are stuck on philosophical belief.

'I can accept that some people feel the same conviction in their core being that I've always had about being a girl- but misaligned with their biology. It shouldn't be contentious but I think it makes them fundamentally different from other men and women'

Do we affirm anorexic people in thinking they are fat? It is after all a type of dysphoria. Do we cut off people's limbs because they feel the limb is not theirs?

Keating and I have both asked how is any male person 'feeling' they are a female person? They may as well be believing that they are something all together different. Yet you and others treat these people as 'genuinely' thinking they are a female person. Just because they wish they were something else, doesn't mean that they are. Or that society should treat them as if they are.

Can you name one other dysphoria or dysmorphia that we treat by demanding that those people are treated by society as whatever they say they are? Just name one.

If you cannot, have you wondered why this one is one that you support?

So getting back to this. You support male people who have the philosophical belief, it might be sincerely held by that person, (because people believe all types of things) being given additional privileges in life compared to others. And to the detriment of female people and others.

If there is no biological or neurological marker, it is only a belief. Since when did society affirm beliefs a person has about themselves that are not based in material reality as if they were? To the point that some people believe, despite the evidence to the contrary, that others should simply ignore this group and the detriments on others because 'it is only a few' and this mistaken belief that someone can be 'genuine' in being born in the wrong body. Sure they might feel that they are, but they are not.

Helleofabore · 25/04/2025 13:27

And we have seen plenty of examples where 'only one' has had a large negative impact.

Look at prisons. One male prisoner in that female prison then may negatively impact all female prisoners in that prison (they cannot just leave) and it may negatively impact female staff at that prison. There has been reports of those male prisoner getting off on being searched by female staff. Plus in Canada, a rape survivor had to stay and watch a male prisoner with a transgender identity on suicide watch where he masturbated frequently. She asked to be relieved but the prison refused.

Midrul Wadwha was just one male person with a transgender identity in the ERCC and negatively impacted many female people who either ended up self excluding or who were given substandard care by that male person.

A male carer/medico who identifies as a female can see many female patients or clients in their week.

One male nurse who demanded to use the female communal changing room in Darlington NHS had 30 complaints by brave nurses saying stop. There is likely many more but they are fearful about being suspended like Sandie Peggie at the NHS Fife.

In sport, we have already seen events where male people have taken first, second and third with prize money or future reward involved. This can negatively impact many many female people just one or two of those male people.

'Just a few' is a flawed argument from the get go. It was a sound bite repeated over and over and over by extreme transgender activists (ie. not the transgender activists campaigning rightfully for not being discriminated against illegitimately). It also relies on people who position any discrimination against a group as being 'bad' whereas discrimination doesn't work like that.

There is legitimate and illegitimate discrimination. And there are rights and privileges. Male people demanding to be treated as if they materially were female, that is a privilege and it is not a right. But it was falsely positioned as a right and some people believed this.

Helleofabore · 25/04/2025 13:44

Nameychangington · 25/04/2025 12:49

You seem to be in the phase of thinking that 'really trans' is a thing. It isn't. There's no definition and no criteria for being trans - if you say you are, you are, no questions. So the rapist who discovers his inner woman identity right before his trial is just as trans as the man who has been called Susan worn dresses and quietly gone about his life for 45 years.

Susan genuinely feeling he is a woman doesn't make him one, however much he believes it, because being a woman isn't an idea it's a biological reality. Anorexics genuinely believe they need to lose weight.

The idea that Susan, whose identity is sincerely held, is 'not doing anything to harm women' isn't true either. Susans presence in women's spaces mean some women can't use their own spaces any more, eg Orthodox Jewish women can't go to the women's swimming pond if Susan's there. Susan's belief is sincere but others don't share it, and Susan's use of the women only space leaves them with nothing, which harms them. Allowing Susan in also allows the males with bad intentions in, because there's no external way to tell Susan from Isla in practice, so that harms women too. And I personally believe that reinforcing the idea that wearing dresses is what makes you a woman, harms women too, it reduces us to appearance and it teaches children that pink and dolls= girls and blue and cars= boys.

Lastly,gender dysphoria exists but I don't think going along with it helps the dysphoric person, and it's out of step with how all other mental illness is treated. So we're selling transpeople short if they're not getting the best more useful treatment for their emotional and mental struggles. And of course, you don't have to have dysphoria to be trans anyway.

I know Namey. It defies belief when you unpick it all.

If someone's mental health is reliant on society acting as if they believe that the person is what they believe they are, this is fucked up medical treatment. Because it puts the onus on every individual in society to act as if that person's belief is material reality, and it means that no one else's needs can be considered.

It was always wrong that clinicians sold people treatments (even free ones) that then also needed society to affirm. It was never fair to anyone. Not to those who then perceive every person 'missexing' them as hating them, not to the female people and children who had their boundaries lowered by well meaning people declaring that those people who should be excluded based on SEX were supposedly not the sex they are.

There is no evidence that any male person at any stage of transition is of any less risk of committing a sex or violent offence any any other male person in the UK. This is true for all other countries.

A group of people is being treated as some special class of male people because of a mistaken belief that they are some how integrally different in their male pattern of criminality. This is not true at all and never was.

Simply the fact that a male person who has had surgery and hormones not reducing their strength and power to an average female persons, but it remains firmly in the zone of male people, should be enough reason for them to not be there. This gets ignored. We have even seen posts saying 'but their arms are just as thin as a woman's'. So fucking what! That 'thin' arm contains better leverage, better hand grip strength and muscle configurations that give strength and speed advantages.

JandamiHash · 25/04/2025 14:17

StandFirm · 25/04/2025 09:06

I don't think we've 'won back' anything sadly and fail to see the real benefit beyond a pure ideological 'win'. I don't care about ideology, I want justice. I'll believe there's been progress only when the ABYSMAL rate of rape convictions have finally gone up. In fact, this whole debate right now is hugely pissing me off because it's a diversion.
Women-only spaces are such a tiny part of the conversation I don't get why there's so much hurrah about it. There is no real victory right now just because a tiny % of the population is explicitly excluded from them (and even on that, I'm not entirely sure of how the ruling will be applied in the real world).
A perv is going to perv on you because they're a perv - be they trans or not. A rapist has by definition no boundaries. That's the defining feature. 99.9% of them don't need to cosplay and infiltrate the women's loos and changing rooms to come rape you. Fine, those that did won't wear a skirt anymore but they'll find other ways. They will spike your drink at the bar, take you when you're too drunk to consent, they will groom you in your classroom or at your sports club, they will prey on your vulnerability and traffic you, they will follow you home in the dark or bundle you into their car and overpower you, they will rape you in your sleep even when you love and trust them... and if they want to follow you into a cubicle despite a lovely sign on the door that says women only, they fucking well will. I have personally experienced two of those scenarios. I bet many posters share a similarly sad score. There's an iceberg of shit to deal with... And as for genuine trans people, who will never fully reconcile who they are with how the world perceives them, I only have empathy for them.

There is no real victory right now just because a tiny % of the population is explicitly excluded from them

50% is not a tiny percentage

If you care about women not being raped why would you spout such nonsense about them being forced to share spaces with men, some of whom are rapists?

A rapist has by definition no boundaries

They do if we don’t let them in our spaces

JandamiHash · 25/04/2025 14:18

StandFirm · 25/04/2025 09:27

Yes. There is a great deal to be done.
Thank you. Let's get on with it.
I'll ignore the rest because there's no tactics or shaming, just my personal convictions.

Telling women that men in their private coaches isn’t a proper problem is a tactic. Telling women they don’t focus on rape enough is shaming

JandamiHash · 25/04/2025 14:25

StandFirm · 25/04/2025 11:10

What we can agree on is that the cases you mention all refer to men who highjacked the identity of a marginalised group (trans) to prey on another vulnerable group (victimised women in shelters or women in support groups). I am certainly not condoning that and I refer to them as pervs because that is what they are and no they don't belong in those spaces. I think the vagueness around self-ID did everyone a great disservice. Is everyone genuine who claims to be a woman? probably not, and I am not denying that. However, whilst I am not trying to dictate to you what to think, allow me my opinion: I don't think trans-women are inherently a threat to women but reading various threads and comments that's what you'd think. In the meantime, rapists at large have impunity. I have no time for them, they're the people I loathe and want to see behind bars. I accept that you and other women's rights campaigners feel very strongly about women-only spaces - and perhaps the notion of distraction was clumsily worded on my part- but I am sceptical about how effective it is ultimately. I also don't think enough is being done to increase the conviction rates in rape cases. It's a pure disgrace.

I also completely disagree that gender dysphoria is simply a philosophical belief. I don't know a single transperson who just made that choice one day. I can't claim to know very many but I have seen one grow up in my close circle. It's something they'd carried with them forever. I also do believe that diagnosis of the condition must be done very carefully because of the serious long term implications in terms of physical and mental health. It is a genuine condition which for the sake of everyone deserves to be better researched and understood.

that the cases you mention all refer to men who highjacked the identity of a marginalised group (trans) to prey on another vulnerable group (victimised women in shelters or women in support groups).

Wait - are you saying these men weren’t trans even though they identify as trans, because they did bad things?

Is the definition of a TW someone who has to be nice? That REALLY flies in the face of what trans people believe.

Helleofabore · 25/04/2025 16:01

Maybe it is helpful to show the basis of how the extreme transgender activist has shaped the sound bites that we see used. By extreme transgender activist I mean those who believe that gender should be prioritised above sex even when sex matters. I do not refer to activists who are rightfully campaigning for their group to not be illegitimately discriminated against. And this is not targeting any person on this thread.

The activists who introduced the shaming sound bites such as 'feminists should be focusing on x, y and z instead of this issue' are using deflection and distraction. They are deflecting the discussion away from the issues they don't wish to discuss, such as, 'Who is a genuine transgender person?' (which they cannot answer by the way, because in doing so it all comes down to someone's belief and that society has to act in a way that removes everyone's right to their own belief).

The male cyclist, Bridges did this in an interview this week. Bridges accused JK Rowling for not spending her money where Bridges thought she should spend it. Who does this? An arrogant misogynist.

An equivalent scenario would be someone shaming a person who supports work to reduce donkey mistreatment by telling them that they need to be focussed on saving dogs, or pandas. Who does this?

It is likely that the person is also working on other animal welfare projects too. But even if they don't, what arrogance does it take to shame that person for being focussed on a single issue.

But no one seems to think twice before shaming feminists for not focussing on what they, the shamer, wants feminists to be focussing on. Even if those feminists are working on a wide range of issues. The person repeating, even inadvertantly, the soundbites are repeating the deflective and distractive tactic of those extreme transgender activists.

And it really is usually backed up with a call for sympathy using emotional manipulation, such as 'but this group is so vulnerable and marginalised' or 'all the lovely transgender people I know' or 'this group are truly different and you cannot just treat them like any other male person' (usually surgery and hormones are mentioned as if it makes any difference at all).

It is a distraction from the real question of what is the basis of this group's demand for special treatment - their belief. And you can see how this gets dismissed with 'it is not a philosophical belief'. Well, if there is no biological factor that makes someone 'transgender' then yes, it is only belief. Regardless of whether you are comfortable or uncomfortable about adding 'philosophical' to that underlying factor.

Plus, there is not even any logical foundation. A person can label their feeling or their belief as anything if they actually don't have a materially real and experienced base for it.

So, as one of my other posts states, a male person labels what they feel as being 'female' based on not a fucking thing. Just societal stereotypes maybe, or their own rejection of what they perceive is 'male' or maybe something else. That is the incoherency in that belief. It all comes down to what that particular male person has labelled as 'female'. Imagine supporting that and then telling feminists what they should be doing?

What other group of people's belief that is no reflective of material reality means society has to act as if their belief is true?

Helleofabore · 25/04/2025 16:34

Next then comes the bits that the extreme transgender activists don't want to discuss - Illegitimate vs legitimate and human rights vs additional privileges.

The UK has provisions that mean that organisations and people can legitimately discriminate against a group of people based on a protected characteristic needing to be protected. ie Sex discrimination is separated into legitimate vs illegitimate discrimination.

Through the falsehood that somehow a male person with a belief that they are female, extreme activists sought to by pass the legitimate discrimination clauses that allowed female people to have single sex provisions (ie. spaces, opportunities including sport). Remember, being a 'female person' when you are a male person is only a belief, sincerely held or not.

Illegitimate discrimination is still protected against in the EA as was mentioned in the judgement. This means that a transgender person should not be prevented from employment, housing, etc because they are transgender. The activist groups over reached and told organisations and individuals that this also included not being able to have single sex provisions if someone had or planned to get a legal certificate that was a legal fiction about their sex.

Some people think any discrimination is bad. But it is the very basis of safeguarding principles that are used to protect people in the UK. It can be argued that it is, in fact, discriminatory that one group of male people get special treatment in getting access to female sex based provisions. This is where it needs to be recognised that there has been additional privileges created for this group.

For instance, the human right for accessing a safe toilet should be based on 'what society views as reasonable'. Society understands that absolutely no spaces are 100% safe.

This is another fallacious argument that we see. The tactic goes 'because you cannot be 100% safe if this law is enacted, why bother? Bad people will still do bad things.' It is just bonkers when you start to unpick that, and again, what law is ever expected to deliver 100% safety. But still we see it rolled out.

So, the human right is that everyone should have access to a safe toilet. And society has to balance out how to do this. They can only get the safety up to a reasonable level. This might shock some people. But it is considered acceptable risk that people of the same sex as the sex that the space is for use that space. Not male person has a human right to expect privacy and dignity from other male people in a single sex space for instance. The category that is considered for those human rights decisions, is that they are male.

This is based on male strength and power, unique male needs, and male patterns of criminality.

Conversely, it is considered reasonable effort to put female people in with other female people. We shouldn't expect privacy from other female people in those spaces and there is considered acceptable risk that an average female person will be able to defend themselves from and / or run away from other female people.

When people start to claim that it is a human rights issue, they don't seem to understand the basis of the human rights they are claiming. And they are attempting to leverage a sub group of male people into the female sex based category.

Remember, those male people are only female based on their 'belief' which they believe is how a female person feels. Evidence shows that hormones and surgery do not change male patterns of criminality. A male person who has lost their penis due to disease or injury is just as male as one who has opted to have their penis removed due to their belief.

It seems to be all based on this misinformation that somehow this group should be given additional privileges above everyone else because of their belief? And what other belief in UK society gets this special treatment.

Therefore, a group of male people have not only access to their single sex spaces, which we know other male people with transgender identities use without issues, but they get additional privileges of access to female single sex spaces and also they can use mixed sex 'gender neutral' spaces as well.

Why should any group of male prisoners have access to the female prison estate? No other vulnerable male prisoners get that privilege. They are housed in the vulnerable male section at a male prison.

And why should any male person be given a role that should be for female people to progress female people (ie a woman's officer in the university's student union) when that male person has no fucking idea what it actually means to be a female person at that university. Just labelling themselves as a female student is not actually being a female student.

This is why we see the discussions repeating the extreme activist soundbites because those soundbites appeal to people's wish to be kind, to be righteous and to their lack of understanding about what makes a person transgender. Those soundbites about 'only a few' are false when you consider the negative impact one male person can have on many female people.

And this discussion about 'genuine' transgender people is one we also see very regularly. But the real question should be, why do this group of male people get additional privileges that no one else gets?

All based on a belief about themselves that doesn't reflect material reality.

Soontobe60 · 25/04/2025 16:49

poetryandwine · 18/04/2025 13:53

I have two colleagues, one in the UK and one in America, who were born male and felt from early childhood that they were in the body of the wrong sex. Both have made full physical transitions and identify as women. For emphasis, they no longer have penises or facial hair and they both have breasts.

They are lovely, highly accomplished people who now feel at peace in, insofar as possible, bodies that match their identities.

Where does this ruling leave them? They certainly do not belong in men’s loos, changing rooms or on men’s wards.

I don’t think twice about welcoming them in women’s spaces, and have attended an away hen party in close quarters with one of them. I really wonder if some of you are prepared simply to exclude them from many aspects of daily life and a civilised society?

They’re still male though. Appropriating female characteristics is pretty gross, especially as the overwhelming majority of males who claim to have known from a very young age that they were ‘born in the wrong body’ are actually AGP males for whom their actions are an extended fetish whereby they get sexual gratification from presenting as female, and that gratification is increased when they get externally validated.
Quite literally, men who identify as women are often getting their kicks out of you going along with their delusions. Grim.

Soontobe60 · 25/04/2025 16:57

poetryandwine · 19/04/2025 16:43

One can say both ‘we have good evidence that transgender brains show differences’ and ‘there is much more work to be done’

Both statements are true.

So how do you account for detransitioners?

Helleofabore · 25/04/2025 17:01

Soontobe60 · 25/04/2025 16:57

So how do you account for detransitioners?

It was ignored soontobe. But we got to see just how lax academic standards are these days that we should believe that weak evidence is seen as good evidence despite having weak methodology.

Soontobe60 · 25/04/2025 17:02

poetryandwine · 19/04/2025 19:08

This research is based on brain imaging. It is neuroscience, not psychology. It has consequences for psychology.

Referees are not fooled by presentation

Can you explain the phenomenon whereby males who have committed violent crimes and subsequently identify as a TW are disproportionally represented in the prison estate?
Is it that their ‘ladybrain’ was switched into ‘boy’ mode when they committed the crime but suddenly turned back to ‘girl’ mode once they were arrested?

OpheliaWasntMad · 25/04/2025 23:07

Soontobe60 · 25/04/2025 16:49

They’re still male though. Appropriating female characteristics is pretty gross, especially as the overwhelming majority of males who claim to have known from a very young age that they were ‘born in the wrong body’ are actually AGP males for whom their actions are an extended fetish whereby they get sexual gratification from presenting as female, and that gratification is increased when they get externally validated.
Quite literally, men who identify as women are often getting their kicks out of you going along with their delusions. Grim.

It’s completely unbelievable that ANY woman would support this self identification trans business. Maybe they aren’t vulnerable but what about the young women, sportswomen, the women in prisons, hostels , lesbian women, women receiving rape counselling …

What happened to feminist solidarity?

TheKeatingFive · 25/04/2025 23:08

OpheliaWasntMad · 25/04/2025 23:07

It’s completely unbelievable that ANY woman would support this self identification trans business. Maybe they aren’t vulnerable but what about the young women, sportswomen, the women in prisons, hostels , lesbian women, women receiving rape counselling …

What happened to feminist solidarity?

Got thrown under the bus in favour of 'progressive' virtue signalling.

BundleBoogie · 26/04/2025 16:28

OpheliaWasntMad · 25/04/2025 23:07

It’s completely unbelievable that ANY woman would support this self identification trans business. Maybe they aren’t vulnerable but what about the young women, sportswomen, the women in prisons, hostels , lesbian women, women receiving rape counselling …

What happened to feminist solidarity?

Sadly there have always been women that work hard against the interests of all women.

Hard to believe but there were quite a few women who campaigned against the Suffragettes. I can’t work out their motivations but we’ve always had them.

Helleofabore · 26/04/2025 17:09

Here is another example of women telling other women where to spend there time and focus.

https://x.com/wingsscotland/status/1916072100651061706?s=46

Maggie Chapman castigating ForWomenScot because they should have spent the money for their court case on abortions instead

And just to remember the words ‘just a few’ that we have seen repeated on Mn for years and years.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SBZ1nmFYaiM&pp=0gcJCdgAo7VqN5tD

This video shows ‘just a few’ and what is supposed to be balanced reporting. It was not women’s rights campaigners at all being violent.

’Just a few’ is just dishonest about the negative impacts. So to is any person who declares ‘both sides are toxic/abusive/ whatever negative accusation someone wishes to lay falsely on women’s rights campaigners’.

https://x.com/wingsscotland/status/1916072100651061706?s=46