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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Sending love to trans people on MN and beyond

825 replies

cassandre · 17/04/2025 20:58

This isn't an AIBU. I just wanted to send love to trans people, in the UK especially, and to other members of the LGBTQIA+ community.

This hasn't been the easiest week for trans people, but there are a lot of us out there who accept you for who you are. We have your backs and we believe that eventually, tolerance and compassion will win.💖💖💖

Love from a longtime MNer and trans-inclusive feminist.

OP posts:
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12
JHound · 21/04/2025 16:06

JandamiHash · 21/04/2025 16:04

What was weird about it?

Writing something on the internet doesn’t make it true. And my response was to ask you if this all happened before the ruling.

So you’re not going to share how you feel about women being raped, you’re just going to mock it and focus on toilets?

God misogynists have really done a number on women haven’t they. The hatred is absolutely palpable

If you don’t know why it was weird I won’t be able to explain it you.

Annascaul · 21/04/2025 16:08

JHound · 21/04/2025 16:06

If you don’t know why it was weird I won’t be able to explain it you.

None of us know why it was weird, including you, presumably, if you’re unable to explain 🤷🏻‍♀️

JHound · 21/04/2025 16:08

Annascaul · 21/04/2025 16:08

None of us know why it was weird, including you, presumably, if you’re unable to explain 🤷🏻‍♀️

Ok.

JandamiHash · 21/04/2025 16:11

JHound · 21/04/2025 16:06

If you don’t know why it was weird I won’t be able to explain it you.

It’s only weird if you really fucking hate women I guess and are asked for your views on their suffering. Heaven forbid a misogynist actually shows a modicum of respect for women

JHound · 21/04/2025 16:16

JandamiHash · 21/04/2025 16:11

It’s only weird if you really fucking hate women I guess and are asked for your views on their suffering. Heaven forbid a misogynist actually shows a modicum of respect for women

Nah it’s weird because it’s weird.

To assume objecting to weirdness means somebody hates women is doubling down on the weirdness.

Person A accuses somebody of making things up.

Person B says actually they are not - there are multiple accounts of it happening.

Person C then asks if person B is ok with women being raped.

If you cannot see why that is weird I won’t be able to explain it to you.

Helleofabore · 21/04/2025 16:20

JHound · 21/04/2025 16:02

Your post was just so….weird.

Somebody claimed it’s a lie that any butch lesbians have ever been challenged in toilets.

I said nope, there are multiple accounts of this occurring.

To which you replied “HoW dO yOUA FEel abOUt woMEn bEIng RAPED!111!”

Which is just a really batshit response.

Speak about misrepresenting a comment.

Somebody claimed it’s a lie that any butch lesbians have ever been challenged in toilets.

The post you quoted did not claim this at all. Either it is a bad faith interepretion, maybe using polarisation as a cognitive distortion to get there or an unintentional mis reading.

Either way, you have twisted what was said to be barely recognisable.

JHound · 21/04/2025 16:23

Helleofabore · 21/04/2025 16:20

Speak about misrepresenting a comment.

Somebody claimed it’s a lie that any butch lesbians have ever been challenged in toilets.

The post you quoted did not claim this at all. Either it is a bad faith interepretion, maybe using polarisation as a cognitive distortion to get there or an unintentional mis reading.

Either way, you have twisted what was said to be barely recognisable.

This is what was said:

This is such unbelievable nonsense I can't even. Trans men (so, women) are not a THREAT. Your (imaginary) butch lesbian friend who looks like a fella is just fine, because she's a woman. It's amazing how many MN'ers suddenly have trans men friends who are 6 foot and muscled up to fuck. I've NEVER encountered one in 44 years, but every mumsnetter has one.

Helleofabore · 21/04/2025 16:26

JHound · 21/04/2025 16:23

This is what was said:

This is such unbelievable nonsense I can't even. Trans men (so, women) are not a THREAT. Your (imaginary) butch lesbian friend who looks like a fella is just fine, because she's a woman. It's amazing how many MN'ers suddenly have trans men friends who are 6 foot and muscled up to fuck. I've NEVER encountered one in 44 years, but every mumsnetter has one.

Edited

Yes. I know. I read it.

It does not say that “it’s a lie that any butch lesbians have ever been challenged in toilets.

JandamiHash · 21/04/2025 16:38

JHound · 21/04/2025 16:16

Nah it’s weird because it’s weird.

To assume objecting to weirdness means somebody hates women is doubling down on the weirdness.

Person A accuses somebody of making things up.

Person B says actually they are not - there are multiple accounts of it happening.

Person C then asks if person B is ok with women being raped.

If you cannot see why that is weird I won’t be able to explain it to you.

It’s not weird. You’re just a passive aggressive misogynist who can’t bear to be challenged on your views about vulnerable women

JandamiHash · 21/04/2025 16:38

JHound · 21/04/2025 16:23

This is what was said:

This is such unbelievable nonsense I can't even. Trans men (so, women) are not a THREAT. Your (imaginary) butch lesbian friend who looks like a fella is just fine, because she's a woman. It's amazing how many MN'ers suddenly have trans men friends who are 6 foot and muscled up to fuck. I've NEVER encountered one in 44 years, but every mumsnetter has one.

Edited

Yep that did say it doesn’t happen - it says women aren’t a threat. Which they’re not.

JandamiHash · 21/04/2025 16:39

Deflect deflect deflect

Fill up threads with nonsensical petty grievances so they run out quicker.

We know the tactics, we’ve been dealing with them long enough

JHound · 21/04/2025 16:40

JandamiHash · 21/04/2025 16:38

It’s not weird. You’re just a passive aggressive misogynist who can’t bear to be challenged on your views about vulnerable women

What “views on vulnerable women”?

This is where you are writing weird posts again.

You did not “challenge my views on vulnerable women”. You asked if I was ok with rape for simply stating that there are accounts of butch lesbians being challenged in women’s toilets.

Which IS weird.

JHound · 21/04/2025 16:41

JandamiHash · 21/04/2025 16:38

Yep that did say it doesn’t happen - it says women aren’t a threat. Which they’re not.

So saying “it’s unbelieveable nonsense, is not claiming that it’s nonsense. And accusing somebody of inventing their lesbian friend is not accusing them of lying.

Ok.

JandamiHash · 21/04/2025 16:46

JHound · 21/04/2025 16:40

What “views on vulnerable women”?

This is where you are writing weird posts again.

You did not “challenge my views on vulnerable women”. You asked if I was ok with rape for simply stating that there are accounts of butch lesbians being challenged in women’s toilets.

Which IS weird.

I asked for your views on the number of women raped and harmed by TW in female only spaces. You respond by mocking the question. And you say I’m the weird one?

You asked if I was ok with rape for simply stating that there are accounts of butch lesbians being challenged in women’s toilets.

You do seem to have a tendency to lie when reiterating what you’ve been asked. Why is this?

JHound · 21/04/2025 16:53

JandamiHash · 21/04/2025 16:46

I asked for your views on the number of women raped and harmed by TW in female only spaces. You respond by mocking the question. And you say I’m the weird one?

You asked if I was ok with rape for simply stating that there are accounts of butch lesbians being challenged in women’s toilets.

You do seem to have a tendency to lie when reiterating what you’ve been asked. Why is this?

I don’t answer weird or irrelevant questions.

Asking somebody how they feel about rape because they said that there are instances of butch lesbians being confronted in women’s spaces is a weird and irrelevant question.

It’s also a fairly stupid question - of course I am not ok with rape.

Now do you also want to know my position on murder, child abuse, insider trading, gang violence, mass killings, human trafficking, drug dealing elder abuse, domestic violence etc.?

FWIW I did not lie about anything. Go back and read your posts.

Helleofabore · 21/04/2025 17:01

TheWorminLabyrinth · 20/04/2025 00:02

This is such unbelievable nonsense I can't even. Trans men (so, women) are not a THREAT. Your (imaginary) butch lesbian friend who looks like a fella is just fine, because she's a woman. It's amazing how many MN'ers suddenly have trans men friends who are 6 foot and muscled up to fuck. I've NEVER encountered one in 44 years, but every mumsnetter has one.

This is the post string.

Penguinmouse posted

I have a butch lesbian friend, born female, who has been accused of being a man in toilets. Your gleefulness about toilets is only going to backfire on women who do not fit into your stereotype of what a woman should look like. Not exactly going to create a safe space for women when GCs start policing toilets demanding to see proof of being female.

TheWorminLabyrinth then posted.

This is such unbelievable nonsense I can't even. Trans men (so, women) are not a THREAT. Your (imaginary) butch lesbian friend who looks like a fella is just fine, because she's a woman. It's amazing how many MN'ers suddenly have trans men friends who are 6 foot and muscled up to fuck. I've NEVER encountered one in 44 years, but every mumsnetter has one.

There is no denial there of female people being questioned if they are in the right toilet for them.

What has been clearly stated as nonsense is that female people are a threat to female people physically or through potential sexual abuse. Because they are female people, and just like all other female people in the UK, they carry the same risk profile of behaving in that way. That is the first nonsense being dismissed.

And then, what the post mentioned was that all of a sudden there is an over representation of 6ft and ‘muscled up to fuck’ female people that so many MNers seem to know who identify as transgender. I believe the comment is referring to how many posters have posted in an attempt to intimidate and scare women who want female single sex spaces.

There is no denial that historically female people were asked if they were in the right toilet and that this will continue to happen. Because denying that would be a nonsense.

But hey, it is certainly being used as a fallacy to support male people having access to female single sex toilets. And female people who have taken deliberate decisions to increase their hormone levels to develop male body cues are being weaponised against female people who need female single sex spaces. I would hope without most of that group’s consent.

I expect that group is being weaponised without their consent because they tend to come onto FWR and tell us how they go to great effort to not cause distress in other female people.

But no. There was no denying that female people will be asked if they are in the right toilet. It is not saying “it’s a lie that any butch lesbians have ever been challenged in toilets.” Unless you work the post really hard with cognitive distortions to make it seem like it does.

OpheliaWasntMad · 22/04/2025 20:30

This ruling will obviously not please some people but it has the merit of being in the best interests of biological women whose needs have historically been sidelined in favour of men’s needs.

There has been a horrifying increase in male violence towards women ( including sexual violence) and it is astonishing that anyone can’t see why women only spaces must be protected.

If trans people want their own facilities they should campaign for a third unisex space .

OpheliaWasntMad · 25/04/2025 07:46

TheKeatingFive · 19/04/2025 17:58

Infiltrating women's spaces and services without their consent is a shitty thing to do.

🙌

StandFirm · 25/04/2025 09:06

I don't think we've 'won back' anything sadly and fail to see the real benefit beyond a pure ideological 'win'. I don't care about ideology, I want justice. I'll believe there's been progress only when the ABYSMAL rate of rape convictions have finally gone up. In fact, this whole debate right now is hugely pissing me off because it's a diversion.
Women-only spaces are such a tiny part of the conversation I don't get why there's so much hurrah about it. There is no real victory right now just because a tiny % of the population is explicitly excluded from them (and even on that, I'm not entirely sure of how the ruling will be applied in the real world).
A perv is going to perv on you because they're a perv - be they trans or not. A rapist has by definition no boundaries. That's the defining feature. 99.9% of them don't need to cosplay and infiltrate the women's loos and changing rooms to come rape you. Fine, those that did won't wear a skirt anymore but they'll find other ways. They will spike your drink at the bar, take you when you're too drunk to consent, they will groom you in your classroom or at your sports club, they will prey on your vulnerability and traffic you, they will follow you home in the dark or bundle you into their car and overpower you, they will rape you in your sleep even when you love and trust them... and if they want to follow you into a cubicle despite a lovely sign on the door that says women only, they fucking well will. I have personally experienced two of those scenarios. I bet many posters share a similarly sad score. There's an iceberg of shit to deal with... And as for genuine trans people, who will never fully reconcile who they are with how the world perceives them, I only have empathy for them.

Helleofabore · 25/04/2025 09:15

StandFirm · 25/04/2025 09:06

I don't think we've 'won back' anything sadly and fail to see the real benefit beyond a pure ideological 'win'. I don't care about ideology, I want justice. I'll believe there's been progress only when the ABYSMAL rate of rape convictions have finally gone up. In fact, this whole debate right now is hugely pissing me off because it's a diversion.
Women-only spaces are such a tiny part of the conversation I don't get why there's so much hurrah about it. There is no real victory right now just because a tiny % of the population is explicitly excluded from them (and even on that, I'm not entirely sure of how the ruling will be applied in the real world).
A perv is going to perv on you because they're a perv - be they trans or not. A rapist has by definition no boundaries. That's the defining feature. 99.9% of them don't need to cosplay and infiltrate the women's loos and changing rooms to come rape you. Fine, those that did won't wear a skirt anymore but they'll find other ways. They will spike your drink at the bar, take you when you're too drunk to consent, they will groom you in your classroom or at your sports club, they will prey on your vulnerability and traffic you, they will follow you home in the dark or bundle you into their car and overpower you, they will rape you in your sleep even when you love and trust them... and if they want to follow you into a cubicle despite a lovely sign on the door that says women only, they fucking well will. I have personally experienced two of those scenarios. I bet many posters share a similarly sad score. There's an iceberg of shit to deal with... And as for genuine trans people, who will never fully reconcile who they are with how the world perceives them, I only have empathy for them.

Yes. There is a great deal to be done.

Yet this post is full of all the tactics and fallacies repeated for years to attempt to distract or shame feminists for working for this result.

StandFirm · 25/04/2025 09:27

Yes. There is a great deal to be done.
Thank you. Let's get on with it.
I'll ignore the rest because there's no tactics or shaming, just my personal convictions.

Helleofabore · 25/04/2025 09:32

StandFirm · 25/04/2025 09:27

Yes. There is a great deal to be done.
Thank you. Let's get on with it.
I'll ignore the rest because there's no tactics or shaming, just my personal convictions.

And most feminists ARE doing both. Or have you just ignored that part?

StandFirm · 25/04/2025 09:42

Not at all. I have not said that - I am commenting on this specific topic which seems to have completely taken over the current debate and pointing to the fact that there is a whole bunch of massive issues that are poisoning our lives. I think rapists impunity is one such issue.

Helleofabore · 25/04/2025 10:16

StandFirm · 25/04/2025 09:42

Not at all. I have not said that - I am commenting on this specific topic which seems to have completely taken over the current debate and pointing to the fact that there is a whole bunch of massive issues that are poisoning our lives. I think rapists impunity is one such issue.

Yes, we can see that from your post.

Did you stop to think that there is already laws around rape and sexual abuse? The issue of course, is huge and it needs attention. However, you are here scolding people that they are not focusing on the issues that you, personally, want to see resolved. We see this all the time.

I will ask you the question that I ask others, when would have been the right time in your view? And how many women and children were acceptable to be harmed due to poor policy sold in by organisations such as Stonewall? And by that, I mean in addition to the huge number of raped and assaulted women and children that are actually covered by laws and policy .

And to be clear I refer to the rape, voyeurism, drink spiking, trafficking. All horrific crimes.

And yet, you keep dismissing the issue as 'just a small group', and even 'genuine trans people' (who are they? The only concept that ties all people with transgender identities together is their philosophical belief. So who are these genuine trans people?). Yet campaigning for this 'just a small group' have created very poor safeguarding policies and protocols that are very far reaching.

Imagine, that if a female person needed to escape to a women's refuge to heal, they may have to share with a male person. We have already heard testimony from those female people in the UK where one had to endure a male wanking in the next bed in a shared room in a refuge and others had to deal with males who demanded special treatment while there and abused women for not using correct language.

Imagine that a female person seeks help from a rape crisis centre, as Sarah Summers did and is taking them to court, and not being offerred female only rape support groups. She had to deal with male people in the group. We also know the trauma being caused with male prisoners being in female prison estates.There are many posts on MN about female people having issues in communal changing rooms.

Then there was the bench book which demanded that female people had to call their rapists, she/her and talk about 'her penis'. And there were female prisoners who got extra jail time because they called a male person with a transgender identity 'he' and 'a man'.

You talk about about boundaries, yet don't seem to acknowledge that boundaries are erased as soon as a child or an adult is told that they must accept male people into female single sex spaces, and that a person of one sex is to be treated as the other sex. All based on their philosophical belief. That is the removal of boundaries.

Yes, we understand that male people will still enter spaces they should not be in. No fucking kidding. What laws are there that people 100% comply with, yet you are telling us that because these crimes will still happen that we should not have been closing up the safeguarding loopholes and demanding clarity in the law Because you perceive the issue to be a minor one, to be dismissed as 'just a few' and 'genuine trans people'.

But at least now there is clarity and those harmful policies that were shaped by Stonewall and others need to be reversed.

You might not have intended your post to be shaming or you might not have realised you are using tired old tactics from extreme trans rights activists in repeating their sound bites that are thought terminating and about causing distraction, but you did just that.

So, according to you, when would have been an acceptable time for feminists to work for clarifying the law? In 10 years? 20 years? Do you see the rape crimes, spiking, voyeurism etc ever letting up?

But instead you feel that feminists and women's rights campaigners should ignore what was happening and focus on the issues that you feel were the only ones they should be addressing. Ignoring that they were addressing them as well. That is shaming.

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