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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Sending love to trans people on MN and beyond

825 replies

cassandre · 17/04/2025 20:58

This isn't an AIBU. I just wanted to send love to trans people, in the UK especially, and to other members of the LGBTQIA+ community.

This hasn't been the easiest week for trans people, but there are a lot of us out there who accept you for who you are. We have your backs and we believe that eventually, tolerance and compassion will win.💖💖💖

Love from a longtime MNer and trans-inclusive feminist.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
poetryandwine · 19/04/2025 18:12

MereNoelle · 19/04/2025 17:58

Surely you know that whatever ‘side’ you perceive people to be on, different people have different views?

And some of them are even backed by science.

PonyPatter44 · 19/04/2025 18:12

Thegreyhound · 19/04/2025 17:54

Totally disagree - trans women are absolutely not in any way the enemies of womankind.

My husband is not my enemy, i rather like him. I still don't want him in the womens toilets.

TheKeatingFive · 19/04/2025 18:13

LuckyAmy1986 · 19/04/2025 18:12

I’m saying we should be focussing on getting women their rights around the world (in some places, even to be able to go out alone or have an education or not be mutilated) before thinking about getting women’s rights for men. What is it you have an issue with?

Apologies I think some of us picked you up wrongly

Sharptonguedwoman · 19/04/2025 18:13

poetryandwine · 18/04/2025 14:04

Yes, this ruling has excluded people with nonconforming gender presentations from many basic aspects of a civilised society without providing equivalent options for them.
It doesn’t matter whether they have known since early childhood that nature played a cruel trick on them, and done their best to fix it; or whether they are a chancer looking to exploit women’s spaces.

Keeping people safe is right. Needlessly excluding them is wrong.

Why is it always women who have to make way?

LuckyAmy1986 · 19/04/2025 18:14

Ah ok! I was confused for a sec

TheKeatingFive · 19/04/2025 18:16

aCatCalledFawkes · 19/04/2025 18:08

Did I not say I thought it was complex?
And also, I spent 4yrs volunteering for domestic violence services. That’s as well as my full time job plus being part of the Covid-19 goverment response to domestic violence. What have you done?

It's not actually complex at all though, is it? There should be no men in women's single sex spaces. If separate provision is needed for trans identifying people, so be it.

Helleofabore · 19/04/2025 18:18

poetryandwine · 19/04/2025 18:10

The Low Countries have been largely following the Dutch protocol and administering puberty blockers. Having taken that position it would be unethical to withhold treatment. So providing a control group is not practical.

No research is perfect. This research is good according to experts. Your point doesn’t detract from that

This Dutch protocol?

The Dutch Model is falling apart

By Stella O'Malley / 2 January 2023

First, Stella O’Malley writes about an article in Nederlands that is throwing a great deal of light on the Dutch Protocol. It also seems that there will be a review of the patients that the Dutch team had not previously included in their papers.

This article in the Nederlands points out the dangers on only using a nation’s own sources with no international input or even wide review.

genspect.org/the-dutch-model-is-falling-apart/

And here is a documentary

A documentary on the Dutch Protocol

There are currently almost 3,000 young people on the waiting list for gender care in the Netherlands. They are vulnerable adolescents who are frequently subjected to discrimination. Many of them suffer severe mental distress. Doctors at the gender clinic in Amsterdam are pioneers in care for transgender young people. The treatment developed here years ago is now used worldwide. Now, criticism is growing. International experts are questioning the scientific evidence put forward by the clinicians in Amsterdam. Zembla investigates the Dutch transgender protocol.

What this covers is that no gender clinic has been able to replicate the results of the Dutch paper. One patient of the group died due to the surgery complications of gender surgery and even de Vries questioned why no one seemed interested in that patient while accepting the study. Dr Riittakerttu Kaltiala (Professor of Pschyiatry, Tampere and who set up gender clinics) and Mikael Landen (Professor of Pscyhiatry, Gotenberg) and Dr Angela Samfjord (Head of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry at the University of Gotenberg ) all are interviewed about the quality of the study behind the protocol and its flaws that became apparent later. Ie. The 55 patients is so small and de Vries acknowledges that they are not really similar to todays cohort of adolescent transitioners. That only 32 filled in the survey with positive results. The others were not chased up and one died.

Gerard van Breukelen, a professor of Methodology at Maastricht university goes on record to say that the methodology of that initial study was weak. There was no control group so the conclusions should not have been considered as strong as the gender clinicians claimed. Other academics declined to be interviewed due to fear for their employment as it is such a contentious issue. When talking to de Vries, she mentions that many more studies have been done by other countries now. And the doco makers mention that all those studies de Vries refer to have stated that the evidence is low quality. A Swedish team led by Landen was asked to do a full review by the Swedish government and he confirms that the evidence was just not there. Hence the Swedish government withdrew treatment.

The mention the Cass review and discussion ‘locking in’ of identities contradicts the ‘time to think’ narrative. They interview three transitioners. One detransitionered before surgery and one is happy with transition but not with the process the team followed. The one who detransitioned was put on hormones despite not even socially transitioning as he felt wearing a dress was ‘a man wearing a dress’. But was put on hormones but didn’t go through surgery after all. It also wraps up with Lucy who was stuck on the waiting list and who believes that if she was given PBs, she would not have ended up transitioning. She has obviously detransitioned now after double mastectomy and testosterone, then ovaries and uterus removal.

The documentary refers to the below as well.

The newly released peer reviewed reanalysis of the UK study. McPherson & Freedman both worked on the initial analysis of the patient clinical data.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0092623X.2023.2281986

Psychological Outcomes of 12–15-Year-Olds with Gender Dysphoria Receiving Pubertal Suppression in the UK: Assessing Reliable and Clinically Significant Change

Susan McPherson & David E. P. Freedman

Published online: 29 Nov 2023

Abstract

The evidence base for psychological benefits of GnRHA for adolescents with gender dysphoria (GD) was deemed “low quality” by the UK National Institute of Health and Care Excellence. Limitations identified include inattention to clinical importance of findings. This secondary analysis of UK clinical study data uses Reliable and Clinically Significant Change approaches to address this gap. The original uncontrolled study collected data within a specialist GD service. Participants were 44 12–15-year-olds with GD. Puberty was suppressed using “triptorelin”; participants were followed-up for 36 months. Secondary analysis used data from parent-report Child Behavior Checklists and Youth Self-Report forms. Reliable change results: 15–34% of participants reliably deteriorated depending on the subscale, time point and parent versus child report. Clinically significant change results: 27–58% were in the borderline (subclinical) or clinical range at baseline (depending on subscale and parent or child report). Rates of clinically significant change ranged from 0 to 35%, decreasing over time toward zero on both self-report and parent-report. The approach offers an established complementary method to analyze individual level change and to examine who might benefit or otherwise from treatment in a field where research designs have been challenged by lack of control groups and low sample sizes.

The Dutch Model is falling apart

Finally. the Dutch are speaking up. The country that recklessly decided that it was a good idea to offer experimental treatment to healthy young teens

https://genspect.org/the-dutch-model-is-falling-apart/

JandamiHash · 19/04/2025 18:23

LuckyAmy1986 · 19/04/2025 18:12

I’m saying we should be focussing on getting women their rights around the world (in some places, even to be able to go out alone or have an education or not be mutilated) before thinking about getting women’s rights for men. What is it you have an issue with?

I apologise, I thought you were downplaying the toilet issue and referring to gender critical feminists. Very sorry! And I agree with you having re-read your post

Helleofabore · 19/04/2025 18:24

Thegreyhound · 19/04/2025 17:54

Totally disagree - trans women are absolutely not in any way the enemies of womankind.

Male people forcibly redefining the words that we need to describe ourselves to include them are actively harming female people.

And that is just the start. So, if you want to use emotive language, then yes, by redefining the words we need to describe ourselves makes those people 'enemies'.

Then we can list all the other aspects that male people with transgender identities have successfully campaigned for that have harmed female people. Shall we continue? Or do you see that trite sound bites such as what you have posted are just falsehoods.

JandamiHash · 19/04/2025 18:24

Helleofabore · 19/04/2025 18:11

I am beginning to understand now just how society got into the mess we find ourselves with such low standards of expectation of academia and those who publish in it.

I find working in an academic field that research all to often just-so-happens to align with the personal views of the lead researcher. If they are an ultra lefty, they’ll find that child poverty is the fault of the Tories. A right wing researcher will find it’s the fault of parents. Any given piece is only so reliable

poetryandwine · 19/04/2025 18:27

JandamiHash · 19/04/2025 18:24

I find working in an academic field that research all to often just-so-happens to align with the personal views of the lead researcher. If they are an ultra lefty, they’ll find that child poverty is the fault of the Tories. A right wing researcher will find it’s the fault of parents. Any given piece is only so reliable

You can’t really interpret physical data in a highly subjective manner. If you do, your referee should catch it.

poetryandwine · 19/04/2025 18:36

Helleofabore · 19/04/2025 18:18

This Dutch protocol?

The Dutch Model is falling apart

By Stella O'Malley / 2 January 2023

First, Stella O’Malley writes about an article in Nederlands that is throwing a great deal of light on the Dutch Protocol. It also seems that there will be a review of the patients that the Dutch team had not previously included in their papers.

This article in the Nederlands points out the dangers on only using a nation’s own sources with no international input or even wide review.

genspect.org/the-dutch-model-is-falling-apart/

And here is a documentary

A documentary on the Dutch Protocol

There are currently almost 3,000 young people on the waiting list for gender care in the Netherlands. They are vulnerable adolescents who are frequently subjected to discrimination. Many of them suffer severe mental distress. Doctors at the gender clinic in Amsterdam are pioneers in care for transgender young people. The treatment developed here years ago is now used worldwide. Now, criticism is growing. International experts are questioning the scientific evidence put forward by the clinicians in Amsterdam. Zembla investigates the Dutch transgender protocol.

What this covers is that no gender clinic has been able to replicate the results of the Dutch paper. One patient of the group died due to the surgery complications of gender surgery and even de Vries questioned why no one seemed interested in that patient while accepting the study. Dr Riittakerttu Kaltiala (Professor of Pschyiatry, Tampere and who set up gender clinics) and Mikael Landen (Professor of Pscyhiatry, Gotenberg) and Dr Angela Samfjord (Head of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry at the University of Gotenberg ) all are interviewed about the quality of the study behind the protocol and its flaws that became apparent later. Ie. The 55 patients is so small and de Vries acknowledges that they are not really similar to todays cohort of adolescent transitioners. That only 32 filled in the survey with positive results. The others were not chased up and one died.

Gerard van Breukelen, a professor of Methodology at Maastricht university goes on record to say that the methodology of that initial study was weak. There was no control group so the conclusions should not have been considered as strong as the gender clinicians claimed. Other academics declined to be interviewed due to fear for their employment as it is such a contentious issue. When talking to de Vries, she mentions that many more studies have been done by other countries now. And the doco makers mention that all those studies de Vries refer to have stated that the evidence is low quality. A Swedish team led by Landen was asked to do a full review by the Swedish government and he confirms that the evidence was just not there. Hence the Swedish government withdrew treatment.

The mention the Cass review and discussion ‘locking in’ of identities contradicts the ‘time to think’ narrative. They interview three transitioners. One detransitionered before surgery and one is happy with transition but not with the process the team followed. The one who detransitioned was put on hormones despite not even socially transitioning as he felt wearing a dress was ‘a man wearing a dress’. But was put on hormones but didn’t go through surgery after all. It also wraps up with Lucy who was stuck on the waiting list and who believes that if she was given PBs, she would not have ended up transitioning. She has obviously detransitioned now after double mastectomy and testosterone, then ovaries and uterus removal.

The documentary refers to the below as well.

The newly released peer reviewed reanalysis of the UK study. McPherson & Freedman both worked on the initial analysis of the patient clinical data.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0092623X.2023.2281986

Psychological Outcomes of 12–15-Year-Olds with Gender Dysphoria Receiving Pubertal Suppression in the UK: Assessing Reliable and Clinically Significant Change

Susan McPherson & David E. P. Freedman

Published online: 29 Nov 2023

Abstract

The evidence base for psychological benefits of GnRHA for adolescents with gender dysphoria (GD) was deemed “low quality” by the UK National Institute of Health and Care Excellence. Limitations identified include inattention to clinical importance of findings. This secondary analysis of UK clinical study data uses Reliable and Clinically Significant Change approaches to address this gap. The original uncontrolled study collected data within a specialist GD service. Participants were 44 12–15-year-olds with GD. Puberty was suppressed using “triptorelin”; participants were followed-up for 36 months. Secondary analysis used data from parent-report Child Behavior Checklists and Youth Self-Report forms. Reliable change results: 15–34% of participants reliably deteriorated depending on the subscale, time point and parent versus child report. Clinically significant change results: 27–58% were in the borderline (subclinical) or clinical range at baseline (depending on subscale and parent or child report). Rates of clinically significant change ranged from 0 to 35%, decreasing over time toward zero on both self-report and parent-report. The approach offers an established complementary method to analyze individual level change and to examine who might benefit or otherwise from treatment in a field where research designs have been challenged by lack of control groups and low sample sizes.

Genspect is well known as a GC organisation, so not an objective source.

For the rest, I was not offering an opinion on the Dutch protocol. I was only describing why finding a control group was impractical.

As you started with such a biased source, if I cared to assess the rest of your claims I would need to look in some high journals I know to be trustworthy. As the point is relatively minor and not of interest to me - on this thread it bears repeating that I was only addressing the practicalities of the research - I have better things to do

Helleofabore · 19/04/2025 18:52

poetryandwine · 19/04/2025 18:36

Genspect is well known as a GC organisation, so not an objective source.

For the rest, I was not offering an opinion on the Dutch protocol. I was only describing why finding a control group was impractical.

As you started with such a biased source, if I cared to assess the rest of your claims I would need to look in some high journals I know to be trustworthy. As the point is relatively minor and not of interest to me - on this thread it bears repeating that I was only addressing the practicalities of the research - I have better things to do

I am referring to the fact that it has been found to be unethical because the study that was the foundation of the protocol was found to not have the strength of correlation that was published.

And also, it would not be unethical not to treat gender dysphoria with hormones, it is only supposed to have been used in particular cases. Plus an adolescent could still have gender dysphoria and not yet be treated by the hormones and still be included in such as study. There were ways around this.

Rather than dismissing something with ad hominems such as you have with Genspect, perhaps read what has been said.

As I said before, any comment on bias by you at this stage is hypocritical.

LuckyAmy1986 · 19/04/2025 18:53

JandamiHash · 19/04/2025 18:23

I apologise, I thought you were downplaying the toilet issue and referring to gender critical feminists. Very sorry! And I agree with you having re-read your post

No worries! I could have worded it better 😆

JandamiHash · 19/04/2025 18:59

poetryandwine · 19/04/2025 18:27

You can’t really interpret physical data in a highly subjective manner. If you do, your referee should catch it.

Except the research you were referring to was a psychological piece. And physical data can be presented in different ways.

poetryandwine · 19/04/2025 19:05

Helleofabore · 19/04/2025 18:52

I am referring to the fact that it has been found to be unethical because the study that was the foundation of the protocol was found to not have the strength of correlation that was published.

And also, it would not be unethical not to treat gender dysphoria with hormones, it is only supposed to have been used in particular cases. Plus an adolescent could still have gender dysphoria and not yet be treated by the hormones and still be included in such as study. There were ways around this.

Rather than dismissing something with ad hominems such as you have with Genspect, perhaps read what has been said.

As I said before, any comment on bias by you at this stage is hypocritical.

Edited

The fact is that untreated transgender children were not available because of the medical practices in use. That statement is independent of the quality of those practices, the ethics or reasoning upon which they were based, etc.

The (lack of) availability of untreated children is the only thing of relevance. Think what you like about the protocol

poetryandwine · 19/04/2025 19:08

JandamiHash · 19/04/2025 18:59

Except the research you were referring to was a psychological piece. And physical data can be presented in different ways.

This research is based on brain imaging. It is neuroscience, not psychology. It has consequences for psychology.

Referees are not fooled by presentation

Helleofabore · 19/04/2025 19:19

poetryandwine · 19/04/2025 19:05

The fact is that untreated transgender children were not available because of the medical practices in use. That statement is independent of the quality of those practices, the ethics or reasoning upon which they were based, etc.

The (lack of) availability of untreated children is the only thing of relevance. Think what you like about the protocol

Fine.

Then no strong correlation should be made until the other groups are also studied.

You are the one here who made the claim you did about measurable biology based on the two studies you initially posted.

poetryandwine · 19/04/2025 19:31

Helleofabore · 19/04/2025 19:19

Fine.

Then no strong correlation should be made until the other groups are also studied.

You are the one here who made the claim you did about measurable biology based on the two studies you initially posted.

The studies are obviously more acceptable to scientific experts than they are to you.

poetryandwine · 19/04/2025 19:38

Helleofabore · 19/04/2025 19:19

Fine.

Then no strong correlation should be made until the other groups are also studied.

You are the one here who made the claim you did about measurable biology based on the two studies you initially posted.

You are applying the same reasoning as anti-vaxxers (in reverse).

They want proof that vaccines don’t cause autism, and refuse to accept studies based on statistics within vaccinated populations. They say these studies are weak, because there is no comparison to autism rates amongst a large, unvaccinated cohort.

Everyone else just evaluates the evidence as it is presented. The analogy is strong.

BiologicalRobot · 19/04/2025 19:40

Sorry to be a pain here but has Poetry actually explained what the measurable bits were yet or did i miss that part? For the uneducated masses that might be lurking (Or maybe I'm the only one 🤔)

"Being truly transgender is a measurable biological phenomenon

TheKeatingFive · 19/04/2025 19:59

BiologicalRobot · 19/04/2025 19:40

Sorry to be a pain here but has Poetry actually explained what the measurable bits were yet or did i miss that part? For the uneducated masses that might be lurking (Or maybe I'm the only one 🤔)

"Being truly transgender is a measurable biological phenomenon

What do you think?

BiologicalRobot · 19/04/2025 20:06

Well... I was trying to #bekind and blame my ladybrain for not noticing. I do forget easily now I'm getting old which is why I'm after a very clear, easily digestible explanation. Plus (hopefully) why they don't use the measurable bits to say who is truly transgender and who are the meanie men and issue certificates as proof. Would make life soon much easier for silly peeps like me.

Edit for spag

Sharptonguedwoman · 19/04/2025 21:14

poetryandwine · 18/04/2025 14:04

Yes, this ruling has excluded people with nonconforming gender presentations from many basic aspects of a civilised society without providing equivalent options for them.
It doesn’t matter whether they have known since early childhood that nature played a cruel trick on them, and done their best to fix it; or whether they are a chancer looking to exploit women’s spaces.

Keeping people safe is right. Needlessly excluding them is wrong.

How can you tell? Who’s genuine, who isn’t and is determined to force themselves into female spaces- Roxy Tickle from the Australian court case comes to mind.

Helleofabore · 19/04/2025 21:25

poetryandwine · 19/04/2025 19:38

You are applying the same reasoning as anti-vaxxers (in reverse).

They want proof that vaccines don’t cause autism, and refuse to accept studies based on statistics within vaccinated populations. They say these studies are weak, because there is no comparison to autism rates amongst a large, unvaccinated cohort.

Everyone else just evaluates the evidence as it is presented. The analogy is strong.

Well gosh. Now I am just like an anti-vaxxer using your 'strong' analogy.

But, I don't know, your perception of strong correlation seems to be both biased and flawed. But hey.... you ARE the academic.

How about this though... you unquestionably talked about the Dutch Protocol and ethics of not treating an adolescent with gender dysphoria (which I also question your accuracy there). I pointed out that the Dutch Protocol, something that was 'peer reviewed' and said to have 'strong' enough evidence to treat so many children has been recently reviewed and found to have been wrongly said to have 'strong' evidence to support their claim.

And you did not even think about it. You just dismissed it.

So, no. You can make all the analogies that you wish, you have shown on this thread that you make strongly worded claims that are not then supported by the evidence you then posted and said supported those claims.

Then you vilified and demonised a woman for using correct and established English language when asked a question about a topic that accurate language was appropriate to use. While calling for emotional support of a male person who admitted in the interview you posted about to having sex by deception with a past sex partner when that male person did not tell the partner who thought they were a female, that they were male.

Please, by all means continue to swerve and distract from that.

Swipe left for the next trending thread