Gender and pronouns

[Wyki]

Before I start, the daily mail and other papers can all fuck off

I’m prepared to be flamed for this as I’ve been here long enough to know how it all works but….

aibu to tell my son he can’t have his partner over any more

It’s a new relationship. My son is 21 and the new partner is 18

He barely works and is consequently on a low salary however he does help me with childcare (that I pay a minimal amount for)

the new partner is a very petite pink haired “girl” that does ballet and dance but uses the pronoun he/him

my 11 year old daughter is finding it confusing and asked if her brother is gay. I replied with “no because the partner is very feminine and is a girl despite the pronouns” (I couldn’t care less if he was gay, sexuality isn’t important)

So am I being unreasonable in saying the partner doesn’t come over as it’s just too weird and I don’t want that example being set for my daughter

So your son's dating a female bodied person who uses the pronouns he/him? Is that right?

I think just say to your child that everyone is different and that's okay.

I wouldn't refuse a partner to visit unless there were issues like drugs, inappropriate or unsafe behaviour.

This

To me it's no different from identifying our of your ethnic group. Why on earth is it ok to call out Rachael Dolezal and Olli London for identifying as non white but "bigotry" when it's something identifying as the opposite gender?

Gender dysphoria cannot be proved by any genetic or medical testing . I don't deny that the condition is real or feels genuine to the sufferer but there is no physiological proof of male or female brains "in the wrong body." I believe it's real as a psychological condition. I know we aren't allowed to call it a mental disorder anymore .

If pink or blue brains were a thing, why are we not seeing vast swathes of women with PCOS suddenly identifying as males? You would think the high testosterone would make their brains more "male?" But with PCOS, and I have it so I can say this with all authority, we don't have a "male" personality . The characteristics of our high testosterone are physical, involving body and facial hair increases, loss of hair on head, weight gain round the abdomen. There is a mental health element of it but that means increased mood swings, more likely to exacerbate issues like PMS/PMDD issues, depression and anxiety, bipolar, BPD/EUPD diagnoses. It doesn't mean masculine personality. You're a tomboy or you're not, it's not about a male brain!

In this case it was an extremely vulnerable young man who I firmly see as a victim of gender ideology.

Exactly. Why do you get to identify out of / in to sex but not race?

Which seems particularly odd, given that there's a lot more genuine ambiguity about racial background than your sex.

And if your 11 year old daughter then started believing she could be a boy too?

Anyone who met the partner would automatically think “female” because that’s how they’re presenting themselves

My son refers to them as “his partner” (not boyfriend)
My sons calls them a he/him
My son doesn’t consider himself gay as he is in a sexual relationship with an adult female

My sons has several non binary friends who go by they/them which is fine

My problem is that this person is choosing to tell me they’re something they’re very obviously not and my daughter is finding it confusing

Have a day off, will ya?

We both know that your grammatical inexactitude doesn't sort the situation 🙄

Exactly! I present as White European which is most of my heritage but I have some surprising things in my lineage a few generations past, it's not our of the realms of possibility that some white people might be a little bit mixed (not saying I approve of what RD and O L did, nor am I saying that some distant ancestry is the same as the lived experience of non white person, but it certianly isn't as binary as sex is (obviously DSD conditions excepted)).

I appreciate in a personal level this feels like a good compromise, but on a societal level it really isn’t. It just shows that people think sex and the language around sex doesn’t matter.

I'd be straight with her.

"Sally is a girl but she wants people to pretend that she is a boy because that's how she prefers to be referred to. Obviously your brother is not gay, I would have no problem with it if he were gay, but he is in a relationship with a girl, so he's clearly not. As you grow up you will probably meet quite a few people who believe they are transgender and want you to pretend that they are a boy when they are actually a girl, or that they are a girl when they are actually a boy. I can't tell you whether you should pretend or not, because it's a personal decision which is also dependent on the context. For example, there's probably no harm in pretending that Sally is a boy when she comes round here. But if a boy who wants to pretend he is a girl is competing on your girl's sports team, or sharing your bedroom on a school trip, those are situations where pretending that he is really a girl could be harmful to you, and pretending would be bad. Either way, the important thing to remember is that it is only pretending. If you have a female body you are a girl and it you have a male body you are a boy."

I appreciate in a personal level this feels like a good compromise, but on a societal level it really isn’t. It just shows that people think sex and the language around sex doesn’t matter.

It does matter, but so do relationships. My relationship with my kids is more important, they knowing I love them unconditionally, that they have room to grow, that they have the time and space to find their way through a much more complex landscape than I did at their age. Keeping communication open, being able to gently steer them through the maze of public opinion, not demanding they pick a side, or do it my way matters to me much more than what I call a girlfriend/boyfriend who will be long gone in a few years time.

So your son is happy to use the wrong word to describes his partner’s sex, but not happy to use the wrong word to describe his own sexuality.

Is that worth exploring with him?

See this is exactly the issue. If your son wouldn’t describe himself as being in a gay relationship then it’s crystal clear he does not view his “partner” as male. The cognitive dissonance is unreal.
And to be clear, I’m not saying he should be describing himself as gay, because he isn’t. But surely this girl must wonder why a straight man would be with her if he considers her to be a boy?

Yes, I appreciate that. For me this is a hill to die on, I feel extremely strongly about it.

In the OP’s situation there is a younger child in play who has already raised the issue of, if her brother is dating a he/him her brother is gay. But he says he isn’t. So now the whole thing is even more of a nonsense.

It does matter, but so do relationships. My relationship with my kids is more important, they knowing I love them unconditionally, that they have room to grow, that they have the time and space to find their way through a much more complex landscape than I did at their age.
None of this is incompatible with referring to his girlfriend as "she".

Good to see so many adults being completely clear about how important facts and reality are for our children - and clearly challenging all the "you're so anti trans" nonsense. What's most noticeable is that everyone's so much more confident in challenging the societal gaslighting. The fear is disappearing as we all get in touch with the priority to safeguard children rather than pander to the excessive coercive control that's been used to groom society into compliance with a harmful ideology.

The Equality Act criminalises discrimination against someone because of their protected chsracteristic.

So it would be illegal to sack someone because they announced that they were undergoing gender reassignment just as it would be to sack a woman who announced she was pregnant.

The EA does not criminalise the use of sex based pronouns.

Although gender reassignment is a PC, gender identity is not, no matter what Stonewall would like people to believe.

It's a grey issue. Doesn't the EA protect someone going through transition?

Mumsnet is the most transphobic site I've ever seen. How these threads go about is disgusting. Is all of the UK like this ? It isn't as bad in London I know.

Look up how many gay people, trans people and non binary people kill themselves every year.

Other people's genders and bodies are none of your business.

Please BE KIND.

Yes, someone undergoing gender reassignment can't be discriminated against eg can't be refused employment or housing because they're undergoing gender reassignment.

That doesn't mean that others can be compelled to pretend that that a man is a woman or vice versa.

Amen to all of this

That's why I said it's a grey area. If they said they were transitioning, would it be seen as discrimination to refuse to address them by their preferred pronouns?

Meh. What you're looking at is adults talking about the difference between facts and fiction, the use of coercive control to silence and the need to safeguard children. Fortunately we live in a democracy (flawed as it is) and citizens are allowed to discuss matters - especially when they have a negative impact on others (men in women's sport, inaccurate language and gaslighting children into believing their bodies are flawed but a sex change will cure them etc).

Demands to BE KIND are often directed at women and girls by those who wish women not to speak about matters of concern.

Wouldn't allow any of that pronoun gender rubbish in my home.
Yanbu