Gender and pronouns

[Wyki]

Before I start, the daily mail and other papers can all fuck off

I’m prepared to be flamed for this as I’ve been here long enough to know how it all works but….

aibu to tell my son he can’t have his partner over any more

It’s a new relationship. My son is 21 and the new partner is 18

He barely works and is consequently on a low salary however he does help me with childcare (that I pay a minimal amount for)

the new partner is a very petite pink haired “girl” that does ballet and dance but uses the pronoun he/him

my 11 year old daughter is finding it confusing and asked if her brother is gay. I replied with “no because the partner is very feminine and is a girl despite the pronouns” (I couldn’t care less if he was gay, sexuality isn’t important)

So am I being unreasonable in saying the partner doesn’t come over as it’s just too weird and I don’t want that example being set for my daughter

If my son said anything so stupid I would fight fire with fire.

"Harry, men have been imprisoned, chemically castrated and even executed for having homosexual relationships with other men. The gay rights movement was about stopping same sex attracted men and women from being persecuted for their consensual sexual activities. You and Sally are in a heterosexual relationship. The sex that you have could result in children being conceived. There is no time in history and no country on earth in which you and Sally would not have been allowed to marry. Your relationship is the kind that has been expressly sanctioned by the church and state in every society throughout human history. Pretending that you are a gay couple is grossly offensive, it makes a mockery of the actual gay rights movement, and I will not condone or tolerate this kind of homophobia in my house."

No male can be a lesbian, they are straight or bisexual men, but I take your point that it doesn’t even make sense within their own worldview.

But "man" means "adult human male" and "woman" means "adult human female".

It’s a power trip.

I have always used pronouns to refer to sex. So did everyone else until this nonsense erupted - evidenced by things like using pronouns for babies/animals who couldn't be said to have a 'gender identity'.

So can someone tell me why it was decided we make this change and when was the societal debate where we all concluded this was preferable? Because I don't remember any of that happening.

That’s called ‘having his cake and eating it’.

No perceived responsibilities of being male, demands access to women but I bet he gets paid like a man.

👏

I agree with this post completely! This could actually be a good time to talk to your daughter about all of these issues and how you feel about it and why.

I am also firmly gender critical, but I don't think alienating your son over this is the way to go. Using their name instead of pronouns where possible and not punishing/correcting pronoun use of your daughter (and perhaps explaining why not if it causes tension with your son) seems sufficient. As for 'is my brother gay', perhaps a simple 'does it matters? That's for him to tell us. We'd love him either way and these things aren't always black and white anyway' might be sufficient without muddying the gender/sex/sexuality waters for an 11 year old.

Thinking about it, as well as using a person's name, I will use they/them in a low key way to sidestep using wrong-sex pronouns in any situation where deliberately using correct-sex pronouns is going to be unnecessarily hurtful to the individual or risky for me.

I find don't find it particularly mentally taxing because in reality society adopted the use of the plural as a way of avoiding sexed pronouns long before preferred pronouns became a thing.

Using they/them feels like an acceptable compromise between not drawing attention to something about themselves that they are very clearly uncomfortable about, without denying biological reality.

This only applies when the individual gives me the equal respect of not seeking to compel my speech, and in the case of TW, by invading my female spaces.

No. They is used as a singular pronoun only when you don’t know the sex of the person being spoken about. Using they in this instance doesn’t make sense.

YES! 👏👏👏

No. They is only used as a singular pronoun when the sex of the person being spoken about is unknown. It’s still mental gymnastics.

Female isn’t an identity, it’s a sex class. You don’t get to choose it. You can be sure no one is identifying as female when they are male in Afghanistan.

It doesn't make grammatical sense, no, but equally, for me personally it honestly doesn't feel hugely awkward to use they/them when I'm wanting to sidestep wrong-sex pronouns.

I do recognise that this wouldn't be as straightforward for everyone and children or people for whom ND makes it difficult should absolutely not be castigated for using correct-sex pronouns. And there are many situations where it is imperative that people are correctly sexed, as highlighted by previous posters.

Distorting or misusing language isn’t about what you as an individual finds awkward or not, because you don’t own words any more than the person wanting you to use the wrong words does.

So if you choose to use the wrong word (they) the impact is no different to you choosing to call a male person “she”.

You haven’t sidestepped anything.

This is such an important point and draws attention to the fatuousness of the whole movement.

The idea that you can 'identify out' of your sex class is so offensive for women across the globe who are genuinely oppressed because of the sex they are born into.

What she wears or does for a hobby is irrelevant- she is female. As PPs have suggested, I wouldn’t ban her from the house, but wouldn’t feel obliged to play the pronoun game in my own home. If the girlfriend is offended by that, so be it. I would be clear with the younger child that the girlfriend is female and that can not change, but for her own reasons she wants to be referred to as ‘he/him’ but that other people do not have to use those words if they don’t believe they’re correct.

Exactly. Who are all the trans identifying men in Iran? They’ll be the gay men who’ve been pushed down this route in a country when homosexuality is punishable by death.

Quite. There's so much misogyny and homophobia lurking under the surface of the trans debate. Not even that far under the surface either.

I'm not sure I'd ban the kid from the house. But I would ignore any chat about what gender Sally may or may identify as.
From what you say Sally is bio female, but identifying as male? Either way just treat it with very little interest.

The fact your son seems lazy etc is another matter. He should be at least paying for and cooking his/his guests own meals and do his own cleaning, washing etc. you could well try and sanction him having friends/lovers over if he's not pulling his weight.

I have a transman cousin and 'he' claims to be a gay man. I often thought, well, you have a vagina and fancy blokes, surely that just makes you a straight woman?! Obviously I never said anything as it's not my place and does seem happier now he's a 'man'. At least on the surface. Not quite sure why though.

I assume your son will form some pretty dim and long-held views of you if you ban this person coming over. Not sure it’s a hill worth dying on if the girlfriend in question is otherwise agreeable.

(I’ll forgo reading the rest of the thread as these topics are usually dumpster fires around here)

Yup. We end up arguing if he talks about it so I'm done.

But it is different, at least it is to me.

Using "they" to refer to a woman who thinks they are a man is a compromise that acknowledges the fact that she and I have a different opinions about whether she is, in fact, a man.

Referring to the same woman as 'he' implies that I accept that they are a man.

I fully respect that other people may take a different stance on this and refuse to use wrong-sex pronouns. For me personally, in the context of navigating this stuff with my teens, I am confident that my approach is the right one and most likely lead to the best long term outcome.

"Thank you for showing me that you are right and I am wrong" said no teen ever.

Exactly.

It suggests that sex based oppression is something that women have chosen because identifying as something other than a woman is an option that is available to us. So if we are not calling ourselves men or non binary that means we accept all the gender based trappings and stereotypes that society chooses to place on us.

At the same time they argue that nobody chooses to be trans, as though it were literally impossible for a trans woman who knows that they are a woman inside to think, "But hey, men get a much better deal in this world and even though I'm a trans woman I can pass much more successfully as a man than a cis woman can, so maybe I'll do that and then I can benefit from male privilege and not be oppressed."

Why are trans women not doing that in the UK, I wonder?

The answer is because they are not actually oppressed, that they actually retain all their male privilege because everyone understands that they are male and treats them accordingly. (Which is why their wants are accommodated but women's needs are not.)

If you ask where all the trans women in Afghanistan are, trans activists will tell you that they can't be "out" in Afghanistan because it's too dangerous to be trans there.

Well, it's too dangerous to be a woman in Afghanistan, but sadly actual women can't just put on men's clothes and successfully disguise themselves as men. This convenient "man costume" as a means of escaping sex based persecution is an option that only trans women and not "cis women" in Afghanistan have. How lucky for them.

Only is their 'gender' has actually been reassigned through a GRC.