Gender and pronouns

[Wyki]

Before I start, the daily mail and other papers can all fuck off

I’m prepared to be flamed for this as I’ve been here long enough to know how it all works but….

aibu to tell my son he can’t have his partner over any more

It’s a new relationship. My son is 21 and the new partner is 18

He barely works and is consequently on a low salary however he does help me with childcare (that I pay a minimal amount for)

the new partner is a very petite pink haired “girl” that does ballet and dance but uses the pronoun he/him

my 11 year old daughter is finding it confusing and asked if her brother is gay. I replied with “no because the partner is very feminine and is a girl despite the pronouns” (I couldn’t care less if he was gay, sexuality isn’t important)

So am I being unreasonable in saying the partner doesn’t come over as it’s just too weird and I don’t want that example being set for my daughter

Hey Mark has Sheila handed in the report THEY were working on?

There you go sorted

"Before I start, the daily mail and other papers can all fuck off"

Full of your own self importance aren't you!

I have a non binary (born male) friend who claims he is a lesbian. I'm like "how does that work?"

OP, have you had a quiet word with your son about contraception? It's possible his girlfriend thinks he/him pronouns means she's literally now a man and therefore can't get pregnant. I know it's bonkers but this is where scientific illiteracy and reality denial gets us.

Again. I reiterate the point that I have to make adaptations to the way I speak, which feels normal and natural.
You’re reinforcing the idea that it’s either the pronouns they want or change the structure of my normal speech pattern.

But as an aside, if Sheila was a trans woman instead of a woman in this hypothetical scenario, Sheila would be annoyed at the use of “they”. Because Sheila is not non binary. Sheila wants “she/her” pronouns… So you’ve misgendered Sheila anyway 🤷🏻‍♀️

A) ‘they’ is only used if we don’t know the sex of the person to whom we refer or if there are several people.

b) some of the people who demand specific but incorrect pronouns get mightily offended if you use anything other than those specific pronouns and ad libbing with a rogue ‘they’ could get you reported to HR.

So not sorted I’m afraid. It’s tricky when you start going against long accepted language conventions isn’t it?

Even in the Maya Forstater judgment it is suggested that deliberately and repeatedly using correct sex pronouns for someone who identifies as something other than what they are could constitute harassment.

In a social setting I would go out of my way to avoid someone who makes a big fuss about pronouns. In a professional setting it's more difficult.

To be fair, nobody is non binary.

But I usually talk about hypothetical trans people in the plural in order to use "they".

In so far as lesbians are concerned it's really sinister imo.

Not so far away from the 'you don't like men, fuck me and I'll change your mind' coercion is it?

Some men have always wanted to bed lesbians, this is the new way.

Depends on if you want a relationship with your son or not.
Your daughter will encounter this soon enough.

I think you’ll find that consistently referring to someone as male when they identify as female would constitute harassment on the basis of gender reassignment which is a protected characteristic.

@firef1yhas also conveniently left off the second half of the sentence anyway in an effort to “sort” it.

No. It is populated by mostly women. Mostly (I think?) mothers.

There is NOTHING like pregnancy, birth and motherhood for realising quite how much our lives are affected - often negatively - by our sex.

If TRAs and transfer people think being pro women is anti-trans they are a) very wrong and b) highlighting that to be trans or pro-trans is anti women.

It is far more nuanced than that.

@Wyki I would let your DD carry on using sex based pronouns without "correcting" her. If DSs girlfriend wants to do that, you can explain again to your DD that sex based pronouns are correct. Fir the sake of family harmony I would use, and encourage DD to use, names at all times for the gf. Even when it gets ridiculous.

🤣🤣 cross post. Totally agree re this not being the way people naturally speak. It takes up so much brain power as most of that sort of language is done almost on autopilot, leaving more capacity for the thinky stuff.

I think you'll find MN believes in biological reality and is against compelled speech. If you don't like that, go elsewhere

Not “would” “could potentially”. And in such an instance I’d defend my stance to the hilt if it came to tribunal. If someone wants to pull me up on the pronouns I use in their absence to describe them, and claim it’s harassment, then let them. How you harass someone when they’re not within earshot or present would be an interesting one.

This is not a bad idea actually, and allows the OP to make her views clear in a legitimate way.

"Harry, I know that this type of conversation is horribly awkward, but it does need to be said. If you and Sally are having sex, are you using contraception? I know that Sally identifies as a man, but ovaries work the same way whatever pronouns someone is using, so Sally can still get pregnant."

Then in the crosshairs of the Equalities legislation [sic], I sit!

It is a hill that I'm willing to die on. Nobody is forcing me into complying with this intolerable bullshit 😡

Hmm, would it though?

If this is true, how does anyone express our legally protected views that identity does not override sex? Which would include not being compelled to use incorrect pronouns for someone’s sex?

Has your position actually been established by legal precedent? Or has the generously funded gender lobby avoided taking this one to court in case they lose?

My peri brain struggles at the best of times. I’m not adding to that mental load just to lie to someone.

Could, not would.

It is context dependent.

The worst that can happen to the OP for pointing out that her son's girlfriend is in fact a girl in a private conversation with her children in her own home is that she has a row with her son and his pink haired girlfriend doesn't want to come round anymore.

So has your son decided he's gay then?

Male/female is sex. Referring to someone as the biological sex they are is perfectly legal (and necessary for medical reasons such as differences in heart attack symptoms).
They identify as man or woman, not as a sex.

Just so you’re aware, ‘suggested’ and ‘could’ are not written into law. In law there is almost always an argument one way or the other, that’s where judges are sometimes useful.

Afaik there is no legal precedent for compelled speech in this way and if someone brought a case there would be a big free speech hooha (that’s the technical legal term I believe) and the EHRC would be forced to get involved.