Gender and pronouns

[Wyki]

Before I start, the daily mail and other papers can all fuck off

I’m prepared to be flamed for this as I’ve been here long enough to know how it all works but….

aibu to tell my son he can’t have his partner over any more

It’s a new relationship. My son is 21 and the new partner is 18

He barely works and is consequently on a low salary however he does help me with childcare (that I pay a minimal amount for)

the new partner is a very petite pink haired “girl” that does ballet and dance but uses the pronoun he/him

my 11 year old daughter is finding it confusing and asked if her brother is gay. I replied with “no because the partner is very feminine and is a girl despite the pronouns” (I couldn’t care less if he was gay, sexuality isn’t important)

So am I being unreasonable in saying the partner doesn’t come over as it’s just too weird and I don’t want that example being set for my daughter

Not all women have a womb

Mayer-Rokitansky-Küster-Hauser (MRKH) syndrome

This may also cause them to have no vagina too. But they are 100% women.

So it would be fine for me to tell my children that I’m now a he/him and want be called daddy?

yeah , if thats not how you really felt , they would probably just laugh , shrug and kept calling you mummy , some kids navigate this for real and they cope

what does your son think if your views ? Have you discussed your feelings with him ?

Out of interest OP does your son think he's in a gay relationship?

It damages women who have to testify in court that a woman raped her with “her” penis. It damages young children who are instructed to use wrong sex pronouns for people and then struggle to accurately categorise humans. You tell an 18 month old that a great hulking man is “she” and “her”. But you use the same descriptions for actual women, and you expect them to know and understand the difference?
Mostly though, it damages the young people who demand these pronouns because it further affirms the delusion that other people see them as the gender they believe they are. Which leads to entitlement of males going into women’s bathrooms. Because if you’ve already conceded that “he” is a “she” what possible grounds do you have to object?
It’s not a kindness or just a minor concession being made. It’s a major one that perpetuates all the other concessions.

That's the one!

Curious about this too!

Being trans is not like being gay. It's a belief system based on homophobia and outdated gender stereotypes. There are increasing numbers of detransitioners whose bodies have been irrevocably damaged by medical interventions. No-one has ever needed a medical intervention for being gay. They just are gay. Inventing a ridiculous set of 'rules' about what it means to be the opposite sex, or no sex and then medicalising this distress is deeply damaging to the individuals themselves and to society as a whole.

Can you not see the issue with being forced to refer to someone tall as short? Someone black as white? Someone male as female?

It’s a lie.

And as soon as you start using words that refer to the opposite sex about someone, you start to sow the seed that that person is, in some vague and undefinable way, the opposite sex - when they are not and never will be.

Using the wrong words has serious consequences. Telling children that they have to lie, to deny reality, and to deny them the language to describe that reality is wrong.

Loads!

‘Should she be in the women’s prison’ has a whole different meaning from ‘Should he be in the women’s prison’

’I feel really uncomfortable when she is in the changing room with me’ has a whole different meaning from ‘I feel really uncomfortable when he is in the changing room with me’

’I feel really unsafe sharing a bedroom with her’ has a whole different meaning from ‘ I feel really unsafe sharing a bedroom with him’

These are not hypothetical situations. These are all real life situations women are now facing. Kristi Hannah is a female victim of male sexual violence who had a male ( very visibly male male who openly spoke of his sexual attraction to women) placed in her very small bedroom in an all female accommodation for addiction recovery. When she went to a human rights legal Centre to complain she was told they would not deal with her as she has misgendered, but if the person she had complained about ( the man) wanted to take a case about her, they would support that person. How is a female victim of make sexual violence meant to describe her feelings about sharing with a man when she cannot refer to him as a man?

The reason why gender ideologists insist so hard on pronouns is because of this. It denies women the language they need to defend their basic human rights. It distorts reality. It makes it impossible for us to describe what is really happening. It makes it impossible to gather the evidence of what is happening when single sex spaces are removed, if male perpetrators are hidden as women in the crime stats.

Using correct sex based pronouns matters a lot.

I had to Google it. Can never remember the name

I think people by now are very aware of the challenges around male to female trans - and yes on a societal level we need to be clear about safeguarding women’s rights. Politically and socially I’m gender critical.

However on an individual level I’d assess each situation on its own merits - individual relationships aren’t the place for me to play out my political, social or religious beliefs to the detriment of others. In this situation the person isn’t going to be raping anyone, I wouldn’t be having a conversation with an 18 month old about gender.

I can be clear about my beliefs while making space for others without being rejecting of them. No need to use pronouns, no need for long explanations to toddlers, no need for drama.

It's forcing someone to go against their conscience if they feel they being made to tell a lie.

I am from a religious faith that is very much against lying and also against forcing someone to go against their conscience . Some people say we are transphobic bigots. I don't think that's fair . People can identify how they wish but they don't get to force people to go along. I could identify as a strawberry but if I told someone they have to serve me up with cream and eat me and if they don't then they're a horrible bigot, I would rightly be considered insane.

Nobody mentioned having long conversations with toddlers. I’m talking about the very simple act of saying “she” or “her” when referring to someone who is plainly male in their presence.

You may well feel that in your own life you want to use wrong sex pronouns to refer to people. I, and many others, don’t. I know people who have been disciplined in work for not doing so. It’s not an individual choice when people are being compelled to do it under threat of repercussions. And it is not a kindness that you’re bestowing on someone.

I don’t think it’s even about conscience or religious faith, those are red herrings.

Words have meanings, otherwise they are garbage. Pronouns aren’t proper nouns, they’re not someone’s personal name to mess around with as they choose.

Being told (and it’s always a demand, with consequences, never a request that can be politely tuned down) to call a woman “he” is no different to being told to call a sausage a banana.

This is why pronouns should be sex based. Not everyone has a gender identity but we all have a sex. Just tell them this.

A fact of their person? That's the core of the issue. Beliefs are not fact.

Prisoner X, the middle-aged Transwoman prisoner in the recent NHS case may truly believe he's a teenage girl, but that doesn't make it a fact.

What is a fact of law is that people have the legal right to believe that a Transwoman is a Transwoman, just as other people have the right to believe that a Transwoman is a Woman.

Equality of treatment does not extend to preventing others from exercising their rights. By demanding silence or conformity of belief that has what occurred.

This resulted in the legal rights of others being violated by institutional policies based on Stonewall style ideology programs rather than the law, (Stonewall was found by a court to have violated Human Rights and to be Homophobic in their policy development programs), people were too scared to speak out and this is demonstrated by various ET legal cases and of course the whistleblowers and the Cass Report into children's gender care.

Those who shut down debate by shouting Ignorant! Bigot! Be Kind! stopped questions that needed to be asked. There's plenty of people, including on MN, who are not listening to those cancellation style social sanctions any more.

You may call that hateful. I call it brave.

You may well feel that in your own life you want to use wrong sex pronouns to refer to people. I, and many others, don’t.

It’s very easy not to use pronouns at all, avoiding any mental gymnastics. I don’t use pronouns when speaking to someone and use their name when speaking about them.

We are not 'anti trans', @Vannymcvan , we are pro womens rights. If that is 'anti trans' or 'anti male' to you, then that is your failing. Maybe you should ask yourself why you are anti womens rights.

I wouldn't say red herrings, for those that are Christian it is a big deal. That said you are correct that the other problem is that it is it isn't factual to call a she a he or vice versa!

@Vannymcvan

@Vannymcvan

I'm genuinely shocked that you've been brainwashed to think being pro womens rights is 'anti trans'. Maybe you should have deep long soul search about why you think that, @bettydavieseyes .

Because that doesn’t make any sense and words have meanings.

OP and her son know that this girl is female and the words you use to refer to a female (when not present) are she or her. This girl has a self declared ‘identity’ and may believe that she’s really male but as she has no idea what it actually is to be male, she’s just surmising.

Some kids ‘identify’ as animals and use ‘neopronouns’ but we wouldn’t agree that they really are animals. The danger with playing along with this girls feelings is that it entrenches her ‘identity’ in her head and she could end up having amputation surgery to make her body match her ‘identity’. Which is horrendously harmful.

It's their business yes, but it's also OP's business and right if he won't be gaslit to ignore her eyes and lived experience as a member of the oppressed sex class.

Being trans is not a pretence or “pretending”.

Yes, it most certainly is.