Gender and pronouns

[Wyki]

Before I start, the daily mail and other papers can all fuck off

I’m prepared to be flamed for this as I’ve been here long enough to know how it all works but….

aibu to tell my son he can’t have his partner over any more

It’s a new relationship. My son is 21 and the new partner is 18

He barely works and is consequently on a low salary however he does help me with childcare (that I pay a minimal amount for)

the new partner is a very petite pink haired “girl” that does ballet and dance but uses the pronoun he/him

my 11 year old daughter is finding it confusing and asked if her brother is gay. I replied with “no because the partner is very feminine and is a girl despite the pronouns” (I couldn’t care less if he was gay, sexuality isn’t important)

So am I being unreasonable in saying the partner doesn’t come over as it’s just too weird and I don’t want that example being set for my daughter

I think you need to start talking to your 11 year old about gender ideology generally as they will be exposed to a lot of different ideas and values once they go to high school.
Personally I wouldn't ban the GF but would talk to your younger child in factual terms - the GF is female but for her own personal reasons she chooses different pronouns. Acknowledge this seems odd to you but it doesn't make your son gay per se. But equally sexuality is a private matter for consenting adults.
Use their name.
But I would make it clear to your son and his GF that they are not allowed to police pronouns in your house. My DD has friends with preferred pronouns and respects their use, she'd prefer I did too but we agree that talking about someone in their absence not to worry if we revert to a more familiar default. To be fair - several girls who used they/them and unisex names are choosing to go back to their sex based pronouns and given names anyway.
I think if you ban the GF you risk making this a bigger deal than it needs to be.

You can easily avoid the whole pronoun thing, but just using their name.

but for some reason is pretending to be a boy

Being trans is not a pretence or “pretending”. If OP teaches her daughter this, she will be teaching her attitudes that are harmful and ignorant towards trans people.

A neighbour is transgender

My children are well aware that I call the neighbour Betty (not real name), and "she" as a kindness / courtsey, but Betty is in fact bio male, this will never change and Betty shoukd not compete in a women's swimming team

It's not that difficult

Although I don’t agree with your understanding and attitude towards being trans, this is sensible advice for how to handle this issue when you don’t understand/ agree with it.

Read this post OP.

Call the GF by their name.

Pay your son properly for childcare.

I am sure at age 11 your DD is probably more informed than you about gender and pronouns.

I suspect she has no issue whatsoever about it and that it is just you that does.

There's a whole board on Mumsnet, discussing the impact of "trans" on women and children's lives - the Feminism & Women's Rights board - perhaps take a look before dismissing Women's concerns as "hate"!

Many teens go through gender dysphoria and it dissipates. I have two trans friends (adults) and they fully accept their sex. I used ‘pretending’ because that’s language a younger child will understand and is gentle language, and also ‘living as’ is a phrase I dislike because it suggests there is only one way to be a girl or boy and reinforces gender stereotypes.

As the 11yr old has already asked if her brother is now gay, then pretending he is is homophobic.

Your house, your rules. You can also say she needs to accept she/ her pronouns at your house, as you don’t pander to this nonsense.

It’s old hat now anyway. I have an autistic child who can’t cope with it. The denial of reality makes him feel like his head will explode. It’s such a relief to see the trend dwindling.

Of course it's pretending.

The definition of pretending is to behave in a way to make it appear that something is the case when in fact it is not. That is exactly what someone does when they identify as trans.

Whether you put that down to an inate gendered soul or trauma or wanting to be one of the cool kids is up to you, but it is still pretending.

Many teens go through gender dysphoria and it dissipates

use of statistical inference without evidence.

I have two trans friends (adults) and they fully accept their sex

I don’t know what you mean by this statement or what means to your two “friends” and how it was communicated to you, but it’s neither here nor there .

I used ‘pretending’ because that’s language a younger child will understand and is gentle language

No. Calling being trans a pretence or “pretending” does not foster understanding and is not the least bit “gentle”. It is misleading, discriminatory and harmful.

Being trans does not foster gender stereotypes.

Theres no need for anyone to be making assumptions or judgements about the son’s sexuality.

No being trans is not “ pretending”. Being trans is an aspect of a person’s core identity (like being gay) over which they have little if any control and is likely to have a durable biological underpinning.

I voted yabu because I think its important to teach two things - tolerance and critical thinking I.e. you can think what you want but still treat people with respect.

I would handle it by saying that everyone different and even know we all know that brothers girlfriend is female because of their internal organs I.e. they have a womb, this person is not comfortable with that and would prefer to be called he/him. So regardless of what we think, we use he/him because we've been asked us to and so its the respectful thing to do. It doesn't matter whether X is a boy, girl, intersex, your brother can have a relationship with whoever they want and we will support him, same as we would for you.

If you ban her you effectively communicate that someone with different beliefs to yours aren’t welcome in your home, which could cause problems down the line.

I’m as GC as they come, but my personal views are exactly that. My kids know that it’s not possible to change sex, they also have a number of friends who identify as non-binary, trans etc. Their friends are welcome here, I call them whatever name they’re using, try to use whatever pronouns because it’s not my battle to have with them, there’s a degree of vulnerability attached to questioning gender identity and I wasn’t them to feel safe and welcome.

I also think it’s important for my kids to know you can have a personal opinion on societal issues while also being accepting of others. If my kids feel confused they know we’ll talk it through, they also know some things just need time and patience to come to a settled place. Their friends identity and sexual preference may change a lot so it’s ok to go with what feels respectful at the time. I certainly wouldn’t be banning my child’s partner - it sends a harmful message to my children, the relationship isn’t likely to be forever and it opens up constructive conversation.

because of their internal organs I.e. they have a womb

how do you know they have a womb! Probably they do but honestly it’s perfectly possible that they do not

Given OPs view, I'm not sure that's a good idea!

Cards on the table, I absolutely think sex matters but that doesn't preclude making people feel safe, respected and included, especially over something as simple as pronouns.

I find these things quite confusing. I understand it can be challenging to remember to use pronouns which (in your mind) don't "fit" the person, but what difference does it make to do so? What's the damage in letting people go by what pronouns they want?

Surely if everyone did it without fuss, those with a "genuine" need to want different pronouns to how they present feel happier, and any who are doing it for attention (as seems to be the feeling on here often!) would stop because it would cease to cause any drama?

OK, X chromosome.

Of course people can be female without wombs, I'm genuinely sorry for my comment, I honestly should have thought more about women who've had hysterectomy etc, so thank you for pulling me up on that.

💯- it’s all performative look at me attention seeking bollocks.

Every generation had their trends that they grew out of and the vast majority of these kids will look back and cringe at their twattiness.

Gender is based on stereotypes. I grew up in an era where it was absolutely fine for men to wear dresses and make up abc for women to have cropped hair and wear suits and ties without pretending they were the opposite sex.

The belief that its not pretence and that the girl is a boy because she says so, is a subjective view that the OP doesn't hold though. I can see why trans people would prefer that everyone did hold that belief, but if they don't, that can't be helped. Its a myth (and rude also) to say that a lack of belief is 'ignorant'. Many people have listened hard to every argument put forward in support of the belief, but still do not share it. Provided they dont treat trans people in a discriminatory way, their belief it is a pretence is not 'harmful' and is entirely lawful.

Because it’s exactly the same as what OP’s son’s gf is doing? Saying she has changed sex and now wants to be called Daddy rather than Mummy?

You are getting yourself in a right muddle.

OP’s son’s partner may or may not be a trans boy. We don’t know. All we know is they have asked to use an unexpected pronoun.

If they are in fact trans, this is not a pretence but a core aspect of who they are which can’t be helped. It is not an “argument” for you to agree with or not- it’s a fact of their person. It is what it is, whether you “believe” it or not.

Choosing to deny the reality of the existence of trans people, or reducing their existence to a “pretence” is ignorant and it’s important to name it so.

Your beliefs are your own personal business, but when you spread discriminatory ideas online or when you treat people in a discriminatory manner then it’s important to intervene.

It’s not necessary to form strong opinions about subjects on which you have little or no personal experience or understanding.

I have no stake either way in the rest of the debate but I don't think there's a need to use "pretending" for the sake of an 11 year old - a very young child, perhaps, but DD is 11 and would 100% understand something like "(GF's name) was born female but has some confusing feelings about that, so has chosen to use "he" and "him" pronouns. You can use those pronouns if you choose, but you won't get in any trouble if you don't".

It leaves the ball in DD's court but reassures her that you'll protect and defend her whatever choice she makes, and doesn't carry the fun/game connotations of "pretending" (so less likely to have ooh, I want to pretend that too).

Duplicated post

No no NO.

There is no such thing as misgendering. Pronouns refer to someone’s SEX. There is nothing wrong with using the correct words, and saying that someone should apologise for doing so is outrageous.

Pronouns are part of language, which is a shared, collective endeavour. Language doesn’t belong to individuals to chop and change the meaning of because they’ve decided the truth hurts them.

And telling an 11 year old that she should apologise for using the correct language to speak the truth is disgraceful.