Gender and pronouns

[Wyki]

Before I start, the daily mail and other papers can all fuck off

I’m prepared to be flamed for this as I’ve been here long enough to know how it all works but….

aibu to tell my son he can’t have his partner over any more

It’s a new relationship. My son is 21 and the new partner is 18

He barely works and is consequently on a low salary however he does help me with childcare (that I pay a minimal amount for)

the new partner is a very petite pink haired “girl” that does ballet and dance but uses the pronoun he/him

my 11 year old daughter is finding it confusing and asked if her brother is gay. I replied with “no because the partner is very feminine and is a girl despite the pronouns” (I couldn’t care less if he was gay, sexuality isn’t important)

So am I being unreasonable in saying the partner doesn’t come over as it’s just too weird and I don’t want that example being set for my daughter

Exactly this.

People do not “identify” as trans, they are trans. No it is not “pretending” or a pretence.

I'd welcome he/she /it whatever into my home, call them what they want to be called, explain to my younger dd that some people like to be called different things , shrug and get on with life

I wouldn’t ban her, but explain that in your house, you will be using the correct pronouns, ie she/ her. Outside your home, she can do what she wants.

This. You’ve got to be aware what’s going on out there in the world and what all your kids are being exposed to. Home has to be a safe space and the “my house, my rules” approach isn’t helpful.

*If they are in fact trans, this is not a pretence but a core aspect of who they are which can’t be helped. It is not an “argument” for you to agree with or not- it’s a fact of their person. It is what it is, whether you “believe” it or not.

Choosing to deny the reality of the existence of trans people, or reducing their existence to a “pretence” is ignorant and it’s important to name it so.*

There’s a relatively small proportion of the population for whom their gender identity is a core element of who they are. There’s a much larger (but still relatively small) population who don’t have it figured out yet and for whom identifying as trans is part of a wider exploration of personhood and their place in the world.

Teen years are developmentally when young people explore their identity, it has always been the case. Alternative ways of dressing, use of language, personal
presentation have always been part of teen years into early adulthood. Any fixed label at this stage isn’t helpful because as we develop, we change. Being accepting of someone, giving them space to grow - knowing they aren’t yet the finished article is more important than claiming a label that has come to carry social and political baggage.

What is trans?

Pronouns don’t belong to individuals to misuse as they chose. They are part of language which belongs to everyone and they have a specific meaning that relates to a person’s sex (not gender).

Misusing pronouns is no different to a short, fat, brunette insisting her preferred adjectives are tall, slim and blonde. It’s a flat-out lie.

Don’t be ridiculous.

There is absolutely an element of social contagion in play in society, that has spread throughout the younger age groups in particular. There have always been fads and fashions in youth and there’s nothing magical about trans that means it’s immune to this.

And bad faith players absolutely do pretend they’re trans to get themselves an advantage over women - eg the rapists who pretend they’re trans to get into women’s prisons and the mediocre male athletes who, once it becomes apparent they’re not going to be medal-winners in the men’s category, suddenly declare they’re trans and try to muscle into the women’s categories.

We don’t know in this case what the girlfriend’s motivations are, as OP hasn’t given them and may not know herself. The girlfriend may be genuinely experiencing gender dysphoria or not. She might be attention-seeking arising from a lack of self esteem. Or any number of other possibilities. So you have no in evidence to claim what you claim.

Agree with all of this and it is how we handle it in our household.

I am staunchly GC and all our DC are biological realisists. Eldest DS (late teen) has a couple of very close female friends who consider themselves trans males. They are lovely young people and I have a huge amount of sympathy for any young woman who frankly wants to opt out of womanhood. I am very happy to make them welcome in my home and would hate to make them uncomfortable, despite privately thinking it is a pile of made up bollocks.

I refer to them by the name when talking to DS or his younger siblings, but would privately use female pronouns for them with DH. (this makes it sound like we are constantly talking about them which is of course not the case).

I do find it odd when DS, who as I said is absolutely outraged by men in women's sports, prisons etc, is absolutely adamant that his friends are men. There's a lot of cognitive dissonance going on. But he is a great lad and I love how much he cares for his friends. So I'm certainly not going to get into an argument about it.

I am aware though that I would find it much, much harder to accept a male in our home who was trying to claim a right to womanhood. Especially around DD. But we haven't had to cross that bridge as yet.

Why can’t you use the pronoun of their choice ?

just tell your daughter he is a woman but likes to think of himself as male I know I could understand that at 11, and yes he may be gay or bi fluid or some other label not invented yet

id be more focused on supporting my sons and my relationships with him

People do not “identify” as trans, they are trans. No it is not “pretending” or a pretence.

Except that identity may change over time. I know many young people who in their teen years changed their name, pronouns, personal presentation to look more stereotypically like the opposite sex. At that time they did very clearly identify as trans. Moving into adulthood all but one identifies as the gender that matches their sex.

They weren’t lying in their teen years, nor were they pretending - they were exploring different aspects of their identity in what was a fairly counter cultural way. Which is very typical teenage behaviour.

The idea that someone is or isn’t trans as a teenager belies human nature and the way we grow and develop.

Pronouns aren’t there for the choosing. They have a set meaning.
Calling a female person she is just as much of a lie as calling a short person tall or a blond person brunette.

This idea that individuals can just choose which words from the English language they can distort is a nonsense and needs to be kicking into touch.

With respect, I think its you who are getting yourself in a right muddle. You are confusing disbelieving that some people may identify as trans, (which is not a matter of belief, but of fact, given we all know some people identify as trans), with a disbelief that a person is a boy or girl simply because they say so. My post clearly referred to the second belief not the first. Its entirely possible to believe that a person is trans identifying without believing they are the sex they claim to be. So please dont attempt to patronise me, when it is you who are conflating two different things, not I.

What about her relationship with her daughter? When her daughter realises her mother is lying, her mother is capable of upholding such a huge fiction that humans can change sex? What of that?

I wouldn't be turning myself inside out trying to remember the pronoun. I would just use the name they like to be called by and if I have to speak about them in the third person, them/they should suffice. I haven't time to worry about this kind of thing, nobody does!

I do find it odd when DS, who as I said is absolutely outraged by men in women's sports, prisons etc, is absolutely adamant that his friends are men. There's a lot of cognitive dissonance going on. But he is a great lad and I love how much he cares for his friends. So I'm certainly not going to get into an argument about it.

I have that with my teen too. I honestly think that navigating the cognitive dissonance is partly a developmental process for teenagers. It’s too easy to forget they are still maturing - physically they may be fully grown but emotionally, cognitively and psychologically they aren’t there yet so will hold all kinds of contradictions within themselves.

As parents giving space, not trying to pin them down or win the fight is vital - they still need space to grow.

I'd be very wary of teaching "respect" by making someone, particularly a child, use false pronouns. That smacks of "respect this person with a penis's right to come into a space designated for women". It's not safe. There's no reason to refer to this individual by pronouns when they're in the house, and if they're not your son cannot insist on maintaining a charade.

I wouldn't ban her but I'd explain to your daughter this young woman is confused about who she is and no it doesn't make your son gay but sometimes people can be very complicated - and like to court attention. (Men can also dance and do ballet by the way) I would just ensure that any "wrong pronouning" is not punished or pounced on.

How many 18 year olds have had hysterectomies?
Of course she's got a womb!

Are people still doing this? It seems very out of fashion.

But what is the actual harm in doing it anyway?

I get that you (and many others) don't like it, but what damage does it do?

There is a very rare condition where girls are sometimes born without a womb (very long name which I can't for the life of me recall) but it is extremely rare.

Dont be ridiculous. A parent can't do anything they want either morally or legally. We are constrained by the mores of modern society. But it is up to the parent to set the boundaries, or are you to stupid to see that?

See, I could not mis-sex someone. I don’t see it as kindness. We had this at work. A very troubled autistic, gay, socially isolated young man from a terrible family background ‘came out’ as trans ( he was a colleague). I was clear with my manager that I would use their chosen name but would not refer to them as she/her as I did not want on my conscience playing any part, no matter how small, in ‘affirming’ this very troubled young man towards medical transition. Which would have just made him a life long medical patient and added to his many difficulties.

No one believed he was really a woman or really trans, yet they still went along with the pretence. I am not sure ‘being kind’ by affirming him was kind.

I would say to your daughter, "No, your brother isn't gay, Lulu Trixiebell is a girl, whatever pronouns she is using this week."