Gender and pronouns

[Wyki]

Before I start, the daily mail and other papers can all fuck off

I’m prepared to be flamed for this as I’ve been here long enough to know how it all works but….

aibu to tell my son he can’t have his partner over any more

It’s a new relationship. My son is 21 and the new partner is 18

He barely works and is consequently on a low salary however he does help me with childcare (that I pay a minimal amount for)

the new partner is a very petite pink haired “girl” that does ballet and dance but uses the pronoun he/him

my 11 year old daughter is finding it confusing and asked if her brother is gay. I replied with “no because the partner is very feminine and is a girl despite the pronouns” (I couldn’t care less if he was gay, sexuality isn’t important)

So am I being unreasonable in saying the partner doesn’t come over as it’s just too weird and I don’t want that example being set for my daughter

Right, so you've massively lost the argument because of, you know, science and facts. So you're now doubling down and trying to insinuate that we're all creepy bathroom prowlers?

Why do you hate women so much?

If you've birthed a baby and breastfed one then surely you must have been vomited on and had a milk leak at some time?

Now someone remind me, who is it who sees women breastfeeding as a fetish?.....

😂👍🏻

I’m not sure you fully understand the concept of logic and facts. He doesn’t get his own definition of ‘womanhood’. He doesn’t ‘think’ they are not women, he knows they are not women.

I’ll spell out the point for you just to be helpful.

The question is, how would he know without asking that one of these trans identifying men would be useless as a surrogate? He could safely assume that any woman of child bearing age could potentially be a surrogate and the only exception being if a medical condition ruled her out. If a woman is older he might assume she couldn’t on account of her age but as I pointed out earlier, might well assume wrongly if she’s under 73.

Unless you really are suggesting that he’s exceptionally dim and doesn’t know how basic reproduction works? Maybe you really a really low opinion of him?

I’m not sure what you are arguing here. Are you suggesting that because you and Sunnytuesday have a different experience to many of us, that women don’t need single sex spaces? Are you saying that because you haven’t personally seen it, it doesn’t happen?

Or do you agree that we should be able to exclude all men, special identity or not?

You really are getting yourself in a right muddle again.

It’s perfectly simple - being able to gestate someone else’s baby (or not) is not the measure of whether you are a woman (or not) - by anyone’s definition. There are millions of women around the world unable to gestate other people’s babies.

Well maybe an anthropologist somewhere will come along and give us an example of a time and place where society did define women this way- I can imagine how pleasant and liberating that place might be for half the human population- probably looks something like Gilead.

No one has said this

You are the one getting yourself in a right muddle - yet again. No male born person can ever gestate a baby. And we all know it. Even you.

That's the point.

Are you suggesting that because you and Sunnytuesday have a different experience to many of us, that women don’t need single sex spaces? Are you saying that because you haven’t personally seen it, it doesn’t happen?

it does suggest that they have nothing else

weird that some women's lived experience doesn’t seem to count for anything …

oh wait i nearly forgot the ubiquitous cry with laughter emoji 😂

gosh that was close….

So just more hyperbole to dismiss women's experiences then.

I mean, after you dismissed discussion about miscarriage on MN as "Women approaching random strangers for medical advice", I thought maybe you would have stopped with that hyperbole. But no..."I think maybe I'm grateful for this and will just hope none of these women decides to buttonhole me outside a stall to tell me about their miscarriage while thrusting a moon cup in my face."

I think this may be lower.

So, you are a mother, but you never had a baby vomit on you, never had milk leak through your clothes, nor had a toddler spill food or drink on you? Fantastic for you.

Yet you feel that you should be able to shame those of us who have had those experiences. Are we also now just poor examples of mothers because we have?

So much so that you feel free to call women who have had to clean up "weird and skeevy". I think you spelt projection incorrectly.

Yes, Rufus don’t forget the laughter emoji.

It is remarkable to see this on MN. It reminds me of when we were told how distasteful and unpleasant it was to discuss the realities of child birth. Now we are told how distasteful it is to discuss how we have used the communal area of public toilets to clean up the realities of motherhood.

But then again, those posts have been excellent examples of the “I’m alright, Jack” position. With more than a side serving of misogyny.

Why can’t “trans women” as a group gestate babies, then? Help us all out here.

No, it’s you that’s got yourself in a muddle - presumably by twisting other people’s words so much that you’ve tied yourself in knots. Or, are you deliberately misunderstanding? No idea, but:

No-one is saying that being able to gestate a baby is the measure of being a woman. What people are saying is that ONLY women can gestate a baby! The mental gymnastics involved to twist that into ‘only people who can gestate a baby are women’ is immense 😄

People choosing a surrogate would immediately rule out approx 50% of the human race because they are male. That leaves them with female people, some of whom will be unable to gestate a baby, many of whom will be able but unwilling because they don’t wish to be a surrogate.

🍿

You had a big old falling out with logic didn’t you 🤣🤣

The reason why those women can’t gestate a baby is because of a medical condition or abnormality. It means they are women with a medical condition or abnormality making them infertile.

The reason why a man can’t gestate a baby is because he’s a man. He might be perfectly healthy and fertile but he’s just not set up for that. Are you seriously suggesting that a person choosing a surrogate would not be aware of this basic fact?

The "only x do y" <=> "if you don't do y you aren't x" fallacy comes up a lot - it's how JK Rowling's "only women menstruate" was met with "Oh rly? I'll tell my great aunt Gertrude that she IsN't A wOmAn then"

There are genuinely people who can't tell the logical difference between "only x" and "all x"

They can tell the difference, they aren't that stupid.

It's yet another manifestation of the dishonest nature of the argument. They pretend they can't to try and fool someone, somewhere. It's so blatant.

I wouldn't have button holed to tell you I had started to miscarry in the toilet where it started. I could barely bring myself to tell DH who was waiting outside. I couldn't bring myself to even tell family and friends, and DH had to brave and do it on our behalf. I have never really spoken about it since.

You. Insensitive. Mindless. Cretin.

My above post was for @Sunnytuesdayafternoon

💐 sorry

Are we back to women must think women, and by that I mean adult human females for clarity, who can't / don't reproduce must be men?

What a stupid argument. No one believes that.

Trans women can't birth children because they are men. Of the body type that can't reproduce because biology and nothing to do with choice or reproductive capabilities.

But everyone knows that. I'm teaching my daughter GCSE biology at the moment. It's really clear.

But people who say trans women are women don't appear to have any workable definition of womanhood at all.

'anyone who says they are' appears to be it.

What a load of bollocks (for want of a better phrase).