Gender and pronouns

[Wyki]

Before I start, the daily mail and other papers can all fuck off

I’m prepared to be flamed for this as I’ve been here long enough to know how it all works but….

aibu to tell my son he can’t have his partner over any more

It’s a new relationship. My son is 21 and the new partner is 18

He barely works and is consequently on a low salary however he does help me with childcare (that I pay a minimal amount for)

the new partner is a very petite pink haired “girl” that does ballet and dance but uses the pronoun he/him

my 11 year old daughter is finding it confusing and asked if her brother is gay. I replied with “no because the partner is very feminine and is a girl despite the pronouns” (I couldn’t care less if he was gay, sexuality isn’t important)

So am I being unreasonable in saying the partner doesn’t come over as it’s just too weird and I don’t want that example being set for my daughter

It means in essence that when they say 'TWAW' they in fact are awarding it as nothing more than an honourary title, it's a performative gesture.

When they actually wish to use a woman, they can immediately separate their mentally mixed sex group by sex.

Which is obviously as offensive to women as it is to insist that woman is a feeling in a man's head, a costume that a man can wear, and that there's no way anyone could tell the difference between the absolutely a woman kind of woman and the need her to carry a baby for me sort of woman.

Tandora

Men with CAIS are not women, they're men. Men with CAIS. It's unfortunate for them that they have external "genitalia," which resembles superficially those of women, but the lack of male sex organs doesn't mean that they're women.

As for DSDs in trans people, that's laughable shite. The Tavistock stopped testing for them, because they didn't find anything at all.

The thing about this ideology is that it has always been able to differentiate between men and women when it has found it beneficial to do so.

Like when it exempted male-line inheritance from implications of the GRA. Or when the Biden administration ensured 'transwomen' couldn't opt out of the draft.

So when people tell you there is no way to differentiate men from women in sport, or keep men out of women's refuges and prisons, they are lying. They just don't want to. They found a way when it came to issues that they cared about.

Tandora · Yesterday 22:11

So tell me where I got you wrong:
Was it the part where you conflated man with biological male?

Pointing out that a man is genetically male involves no conflation, of course. It's like saying "A baked clay block, used in building houses," or "A brick," and saying the the two are being conflated.

Or declared that being a man/ biological male was determined at conception by karyotype?

This is irrefutable bio medical kowledge. There is no evidence to suggest otherwise; sex is fixed at the instance of fertilisation.

You keep wanging on about some purported huge body of scientific evidence saying the opposite. Where is it? You haven't troubled yourself to link to any.

People who believe trans women are women can't say what they think the defining characteristics are though.

That's what it comes down to.

Nobody who can produce an even halfway coherent explanation of what a woman is thinks a trans woman is one.

And nobody who claims to believe that trans women are women can produce an even halfway coherent explanation of what they think a woman is.

There's a reason for that.

I don't believe trans women are actually women. I accept some of them as women but I don't think that acceptance should be forced on people. The problem is that the argument is so vicious there is nowhere for people to discuss it without getting into a slanging match. The trans people I know are nothing like the aggressive vicious ones who lead the movement now.

But by you accepting some men as women unfortunately you’re part of the problem and make it all the more likely that other women and girls will be forced to accept all men who say they’re women as women.

What does “accepting some of them as a woman” look like though? And what’s the criteria you apply to decide whether you accept each person as a woman?

That is interesting. Is there a limit for what you think your friends are women for?

Or is it just a social nicety that you think that can be accepted as women but not for any purpose where sex matters?

I disagree. It's what I feel privately, I don't wang on about it or stand up and scream about it.

If that’s just a private feeling then fine, of course. But as soon as it manifests into you changing the language you speak or not caring about (some) men in women’s spaces it does become everyone else’s problem.

The last few responses have been rather aggressive, and made my point for me I think! A shame.

Whereas replying about my posts but not quoting or tagging me is passive aggressive @LittleCharlotte.

I’m not being aggressive. But calling me aggressive because you don’t like my opinion is just trying to shut me up.

Which is a shame.

All I’m asking is that you consider your individual actions (if they are indeed actions) in a broader context.

Aggressive? I haven’t seen that. Surely any question that you consider to be difficult to answer can’t be perceived to be “aggressive”? I asked my question in good faith. And I mean that sincerely…

Me too. I must admit that I was surprised at that description.

I was wondering what it all meant and wanted to understand.

The trans people I know are nothing like the aggressive vicious ones who lead the movement now

I agree @LittleCharlotte The TRAs and their strategies have damaged things for trans people too. My two friends (both TW) hate this vicious movement. It has just alienated people.

Sorry, my fault!

I made the (fairly uncontroversial) observation that Daly’s choice of surrogate says nothing about whether or not he is lying when he says TWAW (I assume he says that - I have not looked it up).

Apparently I kicked a hornet’s nest!

Oh come now. Obviously TD chose a woman rather than a trans identifying man to be a surrogate because of biology. Which is what this is all about. If he had needed a sperm donor he could have then used a trans identifying man. Again, biology.

Perhaps I'm over sensitive as I felt I had got people's backs up and hesitated posting anyway!
I'm not sure if I can explain it but my friends have been through absolute hell and back to transition. They're not remotely aggressive or frightening, they just want to be themselves. If I look at J in particular she's genuinely beautiful and you absolutely would not twig (although perhaps I'm not very observant: I don't know). A couple of my male friends fancied her (and then sussed she was once a bloke and felt a bit grubby). Above all they're just normal, nice people.

That's why I was so surprised at the responses I got when this all kicked off a few years ago as I had never heard of "self ID". To transition was a huge, huge deal and not something anyone would undertake lightly.

Not sure what you're talking about? I can't quote everyone. It's not passive aggressive, for heavens sake. I was replying to everyone because I felt uncomfortable and backed off.

I mean you could try to get to know a bit more about the person and what is going on, but call me old fashioned, I don’t think being totally honest I’d want that sort of confusion around my younger kid. No, it’s hard, but, I’m afraid not.

Thank you for your post. But maybe I should clarify.

Do you consider them women for use for single sex spaces ? Or do you consider them women just for social reasons?

They're both completely surgically "done" so I wouldn't blink at them coming into a women's loo although the situation hasn't arisen.

If they weren't, then I would feel very differently. Perhaps that's too binary of me but that's just how I feel.

It’s an inaccurate observation though because we can see that young Tom has somehow worked out that TW are all, without exception, unable to bear him a child while also holding the view that TWAW to the extent that they should compete in women’s sports.

Unless maybe you think he has totally lost the plot and has actually asked a TW to be a surrogate? Anything is possible in these crazy times.

Hardly a hornets nest - more just pointing out yet another logic fail.

Fair enough, I hadn’t realised anyone else had responded to your comment.

I still don’t think anyone was aggressive to you though.