Gender and pronouns

[Wyki]

Before I start, the daily mail and other papers can all fuck off

I’m prepared to be flamed for this as I’ve been here long enough to know how it all works but….

aibu to tell my son he can’t have his partner over any more

It’s a new relationship. My son is 21 and the new partner is 18

He barely works and is consequently on a low salary however he does help me with childcare (that I pay a minimal amount for)

the new partner is a very petite pink haired “girl” that does ballet and dance but uses the pronoun he/him

my 11 year old daughter is finding it confusing and asked if her brother is gay. I replied with “no because the partner is very feminine and is a girl despite the pronouns” (I couldn’t care less if he was gay, sexuality isn’t important)

So am I being unreasonable in saying the partner doesn’t come over as it’s just too weird and I don’t want that example being set for my daughter

Ok. Thank you for explaining.

I hope that you understand though that even though you consider these male people as worthy of accessing female single sex spaces, that female people who can correctly sex them will have the opposite opinion. And that those female people who need their single sex sex spaces to be female only may find your friends presence distressing.

A male person who has chosen to have extreme body modification are still male people. Their decision to have this extreme surgery shouldn’t earn them any extra privileges such as access to female single sex spaces. Those are not a reward for people who work hard or go through very distressing choices to get achieve access.

You view them as lovely friends. But to female people who might be distressed by understanding a male person has entered a space that they, as female people, believed was safe and female only have no need to know whether your friends are lovely or not. They are going to be distressed because your friends are male. You may not perceive them as male, but others may instantly correctly sex them.

You might find the answers to your post uncomfortable for many reasons. But they are likely to be honest answers from female people who disagree with you that your friends should be treated differently from any other male person. In the UK and I believe the USA, the majority of people believe that no male people (above the age of a child who needs support) should be accessing female single sex spaces. I am happy to post the polling that shows this.

I said it was my opinion, that was all. I don't expect nor would I want to force anyone to accept it as well. I said that in my initial post. I didn't want to get into a row. I don't have an issue with people having a different opinion but I am not up for having a nasty row about it.

Just to add, that if a male person enters a female single sex space knowing that it is likely that a female person in that space will correctly identify their sex and feel distressed, how is that male person respecting female people collectively?

Isn’t a male person entering a space that is female single sex only, consciously choosing to transgress female people’s boundaries?

To me, a “beautiful” man is still a man. A man with the same impulses and physical strength as any other. The fact that he may have had surgery to invert his penis (which is rare, approximately 95-98% of transwomen don’t) is neither here nor there.
Growing up (and I’m talking late 80s/early 90s for the context of this particular story), my parents separated. My dad moved into a flat and the man living in the flat above him was transgender (or what was called transsexual back then). He had surgery, he was practically immobile for weeks and the rest of us living there carried groceries up and down the stairs for him and all the rest. The general consensus was that he was just a confused guy and a bit odd and nobody thought too much of it really. And then he was convicted for possessing images of children. More than that, he was instrumental in the creation of the images.
How do women tell the difference at first glance between the men who are harmful or deviant and the ones who aren’t?
You say “some”? How do we tell who those “some” are? We can’t. So we have to keep all men out.

No nasty rows. Just people disagreeing politely.

Honestly what difference does it make to your life ? Refer to a person as they like to be referred to. If your 11 year old is ‘confused’ that’s on you for not teaching her to be kind and respectful. Just tell her your son’s partner wants to be referred to as he/him, it’s seriously not deeper than that. Good lesson in differences in people, she’s 11, she should be able to understand people are different and have different preferences, even if she disagrees. It’s not a lie, it’s a difference. That’s all she needs to understand. If you’re that arsed, tell her yes she’s a female but she wants to be called he/him. Not hard is it.

Error

There's a pretty heated one on here at the moment, I have no desire to spark up another one!

Unfortunately there is know way at first glance for anyone to know if the male person in front of them has a penis or not. So it’s right that we keep them all out.

Womanhood is not a refuge for men who are struggling with manhood, which is ultimately what your friends are (I assume they are all M to F). “Woman” isn’t a costume, it’s not a medical solution to a man’s mental health problem.

It’s interesting you mention your male friends who fancied your trans friend until they twigged that it was a man. That’s deception, when all’s said and done, and deception has consequences.

What’s heated about it? Nobody is being rude or aggressive? Surely it’s not “heated” to ask someone how they’ve reached certain conclusions and what their criteria are?

‘beauty’ has absolutely no bearing on whether a person is a woman or not. However, we have seen this used as some kind of supporting assessment that a ‘beautiful’ or ‘stunning’ male should be allowed access to female single sex spaces. It is concerning to see this.

Who arbitrates who qualifies as beautiful / stunning / lovely or not? Why do looks even get included in who should be considered a female person vs who should not. It is concerning once you start to drill down further.

And of course, it doesn’t matter at all if a male person has a penis or not. I know ddakji you know this.

A male person with a penis may still cause female people distress when that male enters a space that is female only.

There is no evidence at all in the UK that a male person without a penis has less risk of committing a sex crime than a male person with a penis.

Whether a male person has a penis or not is not relevant to strong safeguarding decisions.

In a nutshell

Erm, the one about biological sex? That's boiling hot!

Would you be able to articulate what is the difference between one of your friends who has chosen to remove their penis and testes and any other male person who has lost their penis and testes through either injury or disease?

Should both of those groups access female single sex spaces ? Or just those who claim to have transgender identities?

Also, gender nullification surgeries are an option for male people with transgender identities of non-binary. I believe the male person who went to court to have their USA non binary identity recognised here had that surgery, but I could be mistaken. Could you please explain whether those male people should be accessing female single sez spaces ?

How could I and why should I explain any of that? I'm just talking about my own view of the people I know, one F to M, two M to F. I'm not setting down a policy.

It’s not really though is it? It’s only “boiling hot” if you buy into all the emotive language and ignore the fact that actually, humans (and every other species) do know the sex of one another, and have done so accurately for millennia. Otherwise how could we have reproduced prior to all the more recent technological advances… we do know this stuff. Innately. And we’re being gaslit into thinking we don’t.

Ok. I will try another question

Do you support your friends accessing female single sex spaces?

Your own view. Is your own view that these people have either genuinely changed to the opposite sex they were born as, or are you thinking you’re doing the kindest thing by treating them as though they have?

Eh? You don't think that was a big row? I'm completely lost now.

Maybe I’m just old enough to not let things that happen on the internet affect me very much. But no. I don’t think it was a “big row”. It was tiny words on a screen that don’t actually impact me in any real way…

It certainly looked like you were getting affected by it. I can't be bothered with any of that full stop.

I don't think anyone can change sex. It's just how I feel about them.

Does how you feel about your friend, and your belief they should be in a woman’s space justify my ten year old daughter being frightened to take her clothes off in a changing room because she doesn’t share your view and still sees that same person as a man?

Yeah. No . Not remotely “affected”. Will I argue my point? Yes… will I give it any thought outside this space. No. Like I said, I’ve been on the internet a long time. Words on a screen don’t cause me any real time effect. Actual men in my spaces and those of my daughters? That’s a real thing…