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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Gender and pronouns

1000 replies

Wyki · 10/04/2025 18:55

Before I start, the daily mail and other papers can all fuck off

I’m prepared to be flamed for this as I’ve been here long enough to know how it all works but….

aibu to tell my son he can’t have his partner over any more

It’s a new relationship. My son is 21 and the new partner is 18

He barely works and is consequently on a low salary however he does help me with childcare (that I pay a minimal amount for)

the new partner is a very petite pink haired “girl” that does ballet and dance but uses the pronoun he/him

my 11 year old daughter is finding it confusing and asked if her brother is gay. I replied with “no because the partner is very feminine and is a girl despite the pronouns” (I couldn’t care less if he was gay, sexuality isn’t important)

So am I being unreasonable in saying the partner doesn’t come over as it’s just too weird and I don’t want that example being set for my daughter

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 12/04/2025 17:16

TheKeatingFive · 12/04/2025 17:10

I must run that by him.

But I expect the gist will be, that's not reasonable and he can ignore it, it doesn't make him a 'transphobe'.

But other people's boundaries do 🤷‍♀️

Getting him to admit that not everything trans activists say is reasonable is a chink in the armour though.

TheKeatingFive · 12/04/2025 17:17

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 12/04/2025 17:16

Getting him to admit that not everything trans activists say is reasonable is a chink in the armour though.

True

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 12/04/2025 17:24

TheKeatingFive · 12/04/2025 17:17

True

And it might be a way to get him to consider whether Stonewall actually works for LGB people anymore, or whether they're only for the TQ+.

Helleofabore · 12/04/2025 17:25

TheKeatingFive · 12/04/2025 15:54

My brother is a good example of this. He's gay, but admits he would not be interested in a sexual relationship with a 'transman' and thinks it would be an 'unreasonable ask' to expect him to do that. Fair enough.

Except that he believes women who don't want to share changing areas, shelters, prisons with 'transwomen' are bigots. One rule for him, another for everyone else.

This whole ideology is full of people writing cheques they expect other people to cash for them.

What does he say about female sports?

How does he make his arguments coherent in the face of female sports?

TheKeatingFive · 12/04/2025 17:33

Helleofabore · 12/04/2025 17:25

What does he say about female sports?

How does he make his arguments coherent in the face of female sports?

Yeah that one's interesting.

Mostly a lot of wishful thinking about how there must be ways to suppress testosterone and 'level the playing field' but I'm not sure how much he even believes that himself. He'll turn a blind eye where possible.

Helleofabore · 12/04/2025 17:40

For those who believe that the OP should change their language to suit their son's girlfriend. No one has to comply to a person’s philosophical belief.

And we have been shown repeatedly over even the past few months just how meaningless the language that some people demand is and how it IS based on philosophical belief.

Because to be a person with a transgender identity is not based on having gender dysphoria. We have been told this now by professional academics as well as trans people themselves. There is no medical problem needed to be a transgender person at all.

People who are supporting that everyone use demanded preferred language out of compassion are missing the point. The ONLY commonality between male people with transgender identities is that they hold that belief. It is not related to any medical condition as per Dr Crispi below.

"We’re still categorising being transgender as a medical problem, which it is not.". says Dr Vassili Crispi (he/they), an academic neurosurgery trainee who sits on the British Medical Association (BMA) UK Council, and who is part of the doctors’ union’s new LGBTQ+ network.

So, why is anyone trying to demand that we all indulge a male person's philosophical belief?

Meaning no one needs to comply with another persons philosophical belief. No one.

As yet, no one has produced the evidence that it is anything else that is common amongst those people with transgender identities. Plus there is no evidence forthcoming, despite numerous claims from posters, of any evidence that there is any biological markers to indicate someone is transgender.

No matter how kind or respectful that person who is trying to shame you into complying tells you that it is to use the preferred language, it is someone who is demanding that you support their own philosophical belief.

Pronoun demands are very harmful to the needs of female people and children.

Accurate language is vital to ensure adequate safeguarding is being upheld and many other aspects of life. Including ensuring that children and women can properly describe the people causing them harm, including rapists, those who assaulted them, abused them and so on.

Any person declaring that preferred pronoun usage is harmless, seems to only be focused on individual people. They are ignoring or dismissing the collective harm being done.

You, general you, are totally free to choose to base your own language on using the sometimes centuries old established meanings of words and the established protocols of language that are based around sex. Not someone's identity.

Using preferred language around describing someone is based on someone else's demand to believe in their philosophical belief. It is purely up to you.

What you don't get to do, is to shame others for not supporting your belief if they do not choose to. No one gets to infer / imply or to directly state it is ‘disrespectful’ in anyway to use accurate language that has commonly understood meanings amongst the majority of the population.

Helleofabore · 12/04/2025 17:43

TheKeatingFive · 12/04/2025 17:33

Yeah that one's interesting.

Mostly a lot of wishful thinking about how there must be ways to suppress testosterone and 'level the playing field' but I'm not sure how much he even believes that himself. He'll turn a blind eye where possible.

That sounds about on par.

Deflection and an appeal to a false compromise. And the compromise that is demanded of female athletes. Never of male athletes. I wonder what he would do if you pointed out just how misogynistic that is.

As you say, it is wishful thinking. Or perhaps, simply not being interested enough to understand while positing a political position and simply repeating falsehoods and fallacies that he has read from people he wishes to align with.

TheKeatingFive · 12/04/2025 17:49

Helleofabore · 12/04/2025 17:43

That sounds about on par.

Deflection and an appeal to a false compromise. And the compromise that is demanded of female athletes. Never of male athletes. I wonder what he would do if you pointed out just how misogynistic that is.

As you say, it is wishful thinking. Or perhaps, simply not being interested enough to understand while positing a political position and simply repeating falsehoods and fallacies that he has read from people he wishes to align with.

It's been a huge learning and a bitter pill to swallow to see how misogynistic many men (including men I'm close to) really are.

JHound · 12/04/2025 17:56

BundleBoogie · 12/04/2025 16:57

But he could have asked a 60 yr old woman because some 60 year old women can give birth.

She might well turn him down but the point is that asking anyone male regardless of their age is 100% futile as only women can give birth.

60 year old women give birth….?

But the point I was making is him not choosing a trans woman to be his surrogate does not mean he is lying when he says he views trans women as women.

TheKeatingFive · 12/04/2025 18:00

JHound · 12/04/2025 17:56

60 year old women give birth….?

But the point I was making is him not choosing a trans woman to be his surrogate does not mean he is lying when he says he views trans women as women.

Edited

I'm not sure what your point is here. He chose an (actual) woman of child bearing age. He did not choose a 'transwoman' of child bearing age and we all know why not.

TheKeatingFive · 12/04/2025 18:02

does not mean he is lying when he says he views trans women as women

If he's not lying, he's extraordinarily dumb and scientifically illiterate.

He's obviously lying.

JHound · 12/04/2025 18:03

TheKeatingFive · 12/04/2025 18:00

I'm not sure what your point is here. He chose an (actual) woman of child bearing age. He did not choose a 'transwoman' of child bearing age and we all know why not.

Why do you constantly struggle with words on the screen?

My point is what I stated:

But the point I was making is him not choosing a trans woman to be his surrogate does not mean he is lying when he says he views trans women as women.”

TheKeatingFive · 12/04/2025 18:04

JHound · 12/04/2025 18:03

Why do you constantly struggle with words on the screen?

My point is what I stated:

But the point I was making is him not choosing a trans woman to be his surrogate does not mean he is lying when he says he views trans women as women.”

Regardless he doesn't view transwomen as women. Do you disagree?

MrsOvertonsWindow · 12/04/2025 18:08

JHound · 12/04/2025 18:03

Why do you constantly struggle with words on the screen?

My point is what I stated:

But the point I was making is him not choosing a trans woman to be his surrogate does not mean he is lying when he says he views trans women as women.”

It's not Keating struggling with words on a screen 🙄

Everyone knows that transwomen are men who claim to be women - hence nobody seeks out a transwoman to gestate and birth a baby.

This really isn't difficult.

JHound · 12/04/2025 18:10

TheKeatingFive · 12/04/2025 18:04

Regardless he doesn't view transwomen as women. Do you disagree?

I don’t know if he truly does or if he truly does not. I have never spoken to him.

I was responding to a PP who said if he truly viewed trans woman as women he would have chosen a trans woman for his surrogate.

I don’t think that follows.

JHound · 12/04/2025 18:12

MrsOvertonsWindow · 12/04/2025 18:08

It's not Keating struggling with words on a screen 🙄

Everyone knows that transwomen are men who claim to be women - hence nobody seeks out a transwoman to gestate and birth a baby.

This really isn't difficult.

Well clearly people who believe trans women are women don’t share “everyone’s” view of defining characteristics of women.

The point being you cannot claim that they are lying in terms of what they think because of choices they make over surrogates.

TheKeatingFive · 12/04/2025 18:15

JHound · 12/04/2025 18:10

I don’t know if he truly does or if he truly does not. I have never spoken to him.

I was responding to a PP who said if he truly viewed trans woman as women he would have chosen a trans woman for his surrogate.

I don’t think that follows.

He doesn't strike me as a very stupid or totally uneducated person. So I think we can conclude from that. Unless you disagree?

TheKeatingFive · 12/04/2025 18:16

I mean, are we to believe that Daly is totally ignorant of biology? Really?

LittleCharlotte · 12/04/2025 18:16

JHound · 12/04/2025 15:21

I am sure he didn’t ask a 60 year old woman either so I don’t this makes the point you think it does.

She could still have carried his child.

Ddakji · 12/04/2025 18:19

JHound · 12/04/2025 18:12

Well clearly people who believe trans women are women don’t share “everyone’s” view of defining characteristics of women.

The point being you cannot claim that they are lying in terms of what they think because of choices they make over surrogates.

Edited

I’m sure those who believe the earth is flat don’t share everyone’s view of what characterises the earth, either.

Just because someone believes something doesn’t mean they’re right, especially when what they deliver is demonstrably false.

Tandora · 12/04/2025 18:22

Ddakji · 12/04/2025 18:19

I’m sure those who believe the earth is flat don’t share everyone’s view of what characterises the earth, either.

Just because someone believes something doesn’t mean they’re right, especially when what they deliver is demonstrably false.

oh no, I unfortunately opened this thread again and caught the tail end of this typically ridiculous conversation. Are people now suggesting that if a woman cant gestate your baby for you she’s obviously not a woman 😂😂😂. Hilarious. I better go tell my mum and my granny the confusing news.. oh and my infertile friend...

TheKeatingFive · 12/04/2025 18:24

Tandora · 12/04/2025 18:22

oh no, I unfortunately opened this thread again and caught the tail end of this typically ridiculous conversation. Are people now suggesting that if a woman cant gestate your baby for you she’s obviously not a woman 😂😂😂. Hilarious. I better go tell my mum and my granny the confusing news.. oh and my infertile friend...

Oh and we're back with the dishonest arguments.

Slow hand clap for Tandora 👏👏👏

BundleBoogie · 12/04/2025 18:28

JHound · 12/04/2025 18:10

I don’t know if he truly does or if he truly does not. I have never spoken to him.

I was responding to a PP who said if he truly viewed trans woman as women he would have chosen a trans woman for his surrogate.

I don’t think that follows.

Except that isn’t what she said…

True. I found it very amusing that Tom Daley (huge supporter of trans women) didn't ask a trans woman to be the surrogate mother for his babies. Funny that?

He just doesn’t view men that identify as women as women - clearly.

BreatheAndFocus · 12/04/2025 18:36

Tandora · 12/04/2025 18:22

oh no, I unfortunately opened this thread again and caught the tail end of this typically ridiculous conversation. Are people now suggesting that if a woman cant gestate your baby for you she’s obviously not a woman 😂😂😂. Hilarious. I better go tell my mum and my granny the confusing news.. oh and my infertile friend...

Wow! I’m totally won over! I’ve never heard those amazing arguments before 🤣 The women chosen as surrogates are actual women. Not male people who identify as women. HTH 😘

People choosing a surrogate always choose a biological female - because they know male people won’t do. Similarly, no woman ever choose a transman to be their sperm donor. That doesn’t mean those people hate trans people. It means that deep down they absolutely know people’s sex and why and when it’s important.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 12/04/2025 18:37

Tandora · 12/04/2025 18:22

oh no, I unfortunately opened this thread again and caught the tail end of this typically ridiculous conversation. Are people now suggesting that if a woman cant gestate your baby for you she’s obviously not a woman 😂😂😂. Hilarious. I better go tell my mum and my granny the confusing news.. oh and my infertile friend...

Where has anybody said that?
The conversation is pointing out that men claiming to be women aren't able to do the most female thing ever - gestate and birth a baby.

(For the hard of thinking - this doesn't mean that infertile women, women who've had hysterectomies, older women who are no longer fertile, pre pubescent girls etc aren't women. It just means that men claiming to be women aren't women and will never gestate or birth a baby.

Facts, biology and science innit.

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