Page 26 | Gender and pronouns

Wyki · 2025-04-10T17:55:13+00:00

Before I start, the daily mail and other papers can all fuck off I’m prepared to be flamed for this as I’ve been here long enough to know how it all works but…. aibu to tell my son he can’t have his partner over any more It’s a new relationship. My son is 21 and the new partner is 18 He barely works and is consequently on a low salary however he does help me with childcare (that I pay a minimal amount for) the new partner is a very petite pink haired “girl” that does ballet and dance but uses the pronoun he/him my 11 year old daughter is finding it confusing and asked if her brother is gay. I replied with “no because the partner is very feminine and is a girl despite the pronouns” (I couldn’t care less if he was gay, sexuality isn’t important) So am I being unreasonable in saying the partner doesn’t come over as it’s just too weird and I don’t want that example being set for my daughter

lifeturnsonadime · 12/04/2025 12:18

Helleofabore · 12/04/2025 11:13

It is always that lack of consent from female people that started this entire issue. From what I have read, a couple of male doctors told their male patients that of course they should use female single sex spaces. They said this without female people agreeing.

Of course they did.

This is what the entire movement/ ideology is about. Putting women back in our place.

We are simply irrelevant other than to support men (however they identify).

Helleofabore · 12/04/2025 12:27

Helleofabore · 12/04/2025 12:01

There are a couple of significant issues with the argument that these male people have always used the female single sex spaces. These are in no order, by the way.

Firstly, just because some people decided female single sex spaces should become mixed sex and that this special group of male people could access the space, didn't make it the right decision for society. There was no consultation, just the decision made and female people had to put up with it.

Then, the argument is falsely premised that it was 'just a few' so female people shouldn't mind. And that action then was used to leverage in more and more male people so this 'just a few' argument is used to disguise a slippery slope issue. We are also seeing it used as we speak for leveraging in some male people into female sport.

Then, there is an inherent element of reward for effort either directly stated or indirectly implied with 'those male people who 'pass' / made great effort to 'pass'/ had surgeries etc had access or should have access. No male person who has a transgender identity should be accessing the female single sex spaces at all. Extreme body modifications do not make a male person female, and no amount of body modifications should be needed to access a space that is not and never was for them. It is not a reward to be gained by any level of effort at all. And any person declaring that if a male person has had surgery they can enter, applies pressure too to go that step further to 'earn' being considered 'female'. When this is just not possible and those male people should simply accept that they should not access those spaces and find their own solution that doesn't mean accessing spaces that are female only.

This argument about 'passing' also resolves around the 'you cannot tell' argument as we have seen on this thread already.

Then there is the argument that there is danger to male people in the male spaces because of their presentation as a female person. Yet, we also know that there are some male people with transgender identities who do use the male toilets without an issue. Even so, if there IS an issue with safety for any vulnerable male people in male toilets, where are the campaigns to fix this societal issue? Where are the programmes designed to make male single sex spaces safe and welcoming to all male people? There are quite a large number of groups of male people who are similarly vulnerable to come to harm in male single sex spaces. Should ALL those male people also have access to the female single sex spaces because they face what really seems to be the same risk to their safety? Why is this group of male people so special? Female people, it can be surmised, are just human shields.

There really is an issue too with the argument 'some male people really are transgender and should be allowed into the female single sex space', Who arbitrates which male people 'pass' and which ones don't? Who arbitrates which male people are 'really transgender' and which male people are not 'really transgender'.

Then there is the argument about mental health of those who are excluded. But again, this puts female people in the position of mental health support for a group of male people. Again, without consent. There are plenty of things in life that people are legitimately excluded from. If a person is legitimately excluded, then that needs to be accepted.

Of course, not all male people are going to cause female people harm to female people. Still, using safeguarding risk assessment on a collective group basis, male people continue to be excluded from single sex spaces. Yet, some people argue that male people with transgender identities should not be excluded and should receive special treatment for having a transgender identity (ie. a philosophical belief is the only commonality between those people with transgender identities).

It defies strong safeguarding principles. Because there is no evidence at all that in the UK a male person at any stage of transition is less of a risk of committing a sex offence than the rest of the UK male population. There is certainly no evidence at all that that group of male people have the same or less risk of committing a sex offence than a female person. So, there is simply no basis for them to be separated out for special treatment.

It is irrelevant that some male people historically access female single sex spaces. Because those male people should never have been there in the first place. There was no and still is no argument to support their presence.

Just to add, it is because of the lack of evidence or even logic that we are then left with the emotionally manipulative tactics we have seen on this thread.

Including attempting to destabilise the categorisation of human sex categories to support the argument that some male people should have access to female single sex spaces. Because if there is any way that a male person can ever be described as a female person, then apparently using that absolutist approach mentioned before, some male people should get special privileges above others. And it is a privilege not a ‘right’ that a male person with a transgender identity has access to female single sex spaces.

BundleBoogie · 12/04/2025 12:58

Helleofabore · 12/04/2025 12:27

Just to add, it is because of the lack of evidence or even logic that we are then left with the emotionally manipulative tactics we have seen on this thread.

Including attempting to destabilise the categorisation of human sex categories to support the argument that some male people should have access to female single sex spaces. Because if there is any way that a male person can ever be described as a female person, then apparently using that absolutist approach mentioned before, some male people should get special privileges above others. And it is a privilege not a ‘right’ that a male person with a transgender identity has access to female single sex spaces.

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Yes, there was that quote by one of the amazing women in this fight that basically said that if someone’s identity as a woman requires changing the meaning of all relevant words and facts, then it’s not actually genuine or words to that effect. Sorry - my memory is rubbish - it was a very good quote.

TheKeatingFive · 12/04/2025 13:22

Another glaring logical hole in all this ...

What is it that all actual women and all so-called 'transwomen' have in common, that no so-called 'cis man' shares - that would make these two groups a coherent category?

Let alone a more important category than 'biological women'?

I have asked this before and guess what? I got zero explanation.

TheKeatingFive · 12/04/2025 13:23

BundleBoogie · 12/04/2025 12:58

Yes, there was that quote by one of the amazing women in this fight that basically said that if someone’s identity as a woman requires changing the meaning of all relevant words and facts, then it’s not actually genuine or words to that effect. Sorry - my memory is rubbish - it was a very good quote.

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It's an excellent point.

DownWhichOfLate · 12/04/2025 13:25

TheKeatingFive · 12/04/2025 13:22

Another glaring logical hole in all this ...

What is it that all actual women and all so-called 'transwomen' have in common, that no so-called 'cis man' shares - that would make these two groups a coherent category?

Let alone a more important category than 'biological women'?

I have asked this before and guess what? I got zero explanation.

Ugh. I fear the answer to this would be that women and transwomen “feel like women” and some other wishy washy crap.

TheKeatingFive · 12/04/2025 13:29

DownWhichOfLate · 12/04/2025 13:25

Ugh. I fear the answer to this would be that women and transwomen “feel like women” and some other wishy washy crap.

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Exactly, but that doesn't hold up to the slightest scrutiny since plenty of actual women don't purport to 'feel like a woman' beyond what their biology dictates.

lifeturnsonadime · 12/04/2025 13:30

I'd quite like to see an open debate between Tandora and Sir Robert Winston.

I'd pay good money to see that!

Fountofwisdom · 12/04/2025 13:31

YANBU. I wouldn’t entertain any of that attention-seeking bs around a child either. Your house, your rules.

Arraminta · 12/04/2025 13:46

lifeturnsonadime · 12/04/2025 13:30

I'd quite like to see an open debate between Tandora and Sir Robert Winston.

I'd pay good money to see that!

Me too! He would absolutely eviscerate her.

BelfastBard · 12/04/2025 13:47

TheKeatingFive · 12/04/2025 13:29

Exactly, but that doesn't hold up to the slightest scrutiny since plenty of actual women don't purport to 'feel like a woman' beyond what their biology dictates.

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This is the bit no one can explain with any real merit. What does “feeling like a woman” entail? How can any person, born male, quantify what that feels like in order to confidently state that their lived experience is that of a female? They can’t. They can view womanhood through their male perception, but they cannot understand or know what it is to move through life as a female. Just as I cannot perceive what it is to live as a male. Or someone who is black. Or someone who is blind.

Arraminta · 12/04/2025 13:50

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 12/04/2025 07:28

When they accuse us of denying the existence of trans people, what they actually mean is that we don't believe in the existence of male women, female men, or people who are neither male nor female.

That is true. I don't believe in that.

But that's simply not believing that trans women are women. It's not believing that trans women don't exist.

And the problem for trans activists like Tandora is that nobody actually believes trans women are women. Not even the people who pretend they do.

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True. I found it very amusing that Tom Daley (huge supporter of trans women) didn't ask a trans woman to be the surrogate mother for his babies. Funny that?

JHound · 12/04/2025 15:21

Arraminta · 12/04/2025 13:50

True. I found it very amusing that Tom Daley (huge supporter of trans women) didn't ask a trans woman to be the surrogate mother for his babies. Funny that?

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I am sure he didn’t ask a 60 year old woman either so I don’t this makes the point you think it does.

TheOtherRaven · 12/04/2025 15:32

But it does though, doesn't it? In that everyone, even those who claim to be in denial about it, know exactly the sex class (and the age group) that is required if you want them to have a baby for you, due to reproductive capacity being a reality. When it matters to them, they set the waffle aside.

TheKeatingFive · 12/04/2025 15:42

The thing is, absolutely everyone knows that TW aren't actually women. And vice versa.

They reveal that via the lines they draw in their own lives. Like the OP's son who isn't claiming to be gay, even while calling his girlfriend he/him.

What I find very interesting is people's unwillingness to let others draw their own lines. They seem to think their own boundaries are perfectly valid, but others are not.

TheKeatingFive · 12/04/2025 15:43

TheOtherRaven · 12/04/2025 15:32

But it does though, doesn't it? In that everyone, even those who claim to be in denial about it, know exactly the sex class (and the age group) that is required if you want them to have a baby for you, due to reproductive capacity being a reality. When it matters to them, they set the waffle aside.

When it matters to them, they set the waffle aside.

This is a much more succinct expression of what I was trying to say.

TheKeatingFive · 12/04/2025 15:54

My brother is a good example of this. He's gay, but admits he would not be interested in a sexual relationship with a 'transman' and thinks it would be an 'unreasonable ask' to expect him to do that. Fair enough.

Except that he believes women who don't want to share changing areas, shelters, prisons with 'transwomen' are bigots. One rule for him, another for everyone else.

This whole ideology is full of people writing cheques they expect other people to cash for them.

Helleofabore · 12/04/2025 15:57

TheKeatingFive · 12/04/2025 15:54

My brother is a good example of this. He's gay, but admits he would not be interested in a sexual relationship with a 'transman' and thinks it would be an 'unreasonable ask' to expect him to do that. Fair enough.

Except that he believes women who don't want to share changing areas, shelters, prisons with 'transwomen' are bigots. One rule for him, another for everyone else.

This whole ideology is full of people writing cheques they expect other people to cash for them.

I think that this then comes around to the disconnect that some people won’t acknowledge. They dismiss this as ‘no one should be having sex that they don’t want to have.’

MrsOvertonsWindow · 12/04/2025 16:32

TheKeatingFive · 12/04/2025 15:42

The thing is, absolutely everyone knows that TW aren't actually women. And vice versa.

They reveal that via the lines they draw in their own lives. Like the OP's son who isn't claiming to be gay, even while calling his girlfriend he/him.

What I find very interesting is people's unwillingness to let others draw their own lines. They seem to think their own boundaries are perfectly valid, but others are not.

Presumably all this comes from the tedious arrogance and intense self absorption seen in so many transactivists - and their successful attempts to silence society from pointing out all the delusions and lies involved.

"Transwomen are women you bigot" - except when I need a baby birthed for me, a sexual partner or they're one of the embarrassing sex offenders letting the side down.

In failing to say no to these misogynistic, anti social and at time downright dangerous demands, society has done no favours to extremists who've been allowed to trample all over women's rights and child safeguarding.

BundleBoogie · 12/04/2025 16:57

JHound · 12/04/2025 15:21

I am sure he didn’t ask a 60 year old woman either so I don’t this makes the point you think it does.

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But he could have asked a 60 yr old woman because some 60 year old women can give birth.

She might well turn him down but the point is that asking anyone male regardless of their age is 100% futile as only women can give birth.

BundleBoogie · 12/04/2025 17:00

This whole ideology is full of people writing cheques they expect other people to cash for them.

This, a thousand million times.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 12/04/2025 17:06

TheKeatingFive · 12/04/2025 15:54

My brother is a good example of this. He's gay, but admits he would not be interested in a sexual relationship with a 'transman' and thinks it would be an 'unreasonable ask' to expect him to do that. Fair enough.

Except that he believes women who don't want to share changing areas, shelters, prisons with 'transwomen' are bigots. One rule for him, another for everyone else.

This whole ideology is full of people writing cheques they expect other people to cash for them.

What does he think about Nancy Kelley's suggestion that lesbians who wouldn't consider having a sexual relationship with a trans woman are akin to sexual racists?

TheOtherRaven · 12/04/2025 17:06

Helleofabore · 12/04/2025 15:57

I think that this then comes around to the disconnect that some people won’t acknowledge. They dismiss this as ‘no one should be having sex that they don’t want to have.’

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It is amazing how many people hold a deep down, subconscious belief that women have no business saying no to men. Particularly about their bodies and about sex.

TheKeatingFive · 12/04/2025 17:10

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 12/04/2025 17:06

What does he think about Nancy Kelley's suggestion that lesbians who wouldn't consider having a sexual relationship with a trans woman are akin to sexual racists?

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I must run that by him.

But I expect the gist will be, that's not reasonable and he can ignore it, it doesn't make him a 'transphobe'.

But other people's boundaries do 🤷‍♀️

MrsOvertonsWindow · 12/04/2025 17:15

I've heard that the Flat Earth Society meeting is finishing so have no doubt that this thread will have shortly have incoming 😄