Gender and pronouns

[Wyki]

Before I start, the daily mail and other papers can all fuck off

I’m prepared to be flamed for this as I’ve been here long enough to know how it all works but….

aibu to tell my son he can’t have his partner over any more

It’s a new relationship. My son is 21 and the new partner is 18

He barely works and is consequently on a low salary however he does help me with childcare (that I pay a minimal amount for)

the new partner is a very petite pink haired “girl” that does ballet and dance but uses the pronoun he/him

my 11 year old daughter is finding it confusing and asked if her brother is gay. I replied with “no because the partner is very feminine and is a girl despite the pronouns” (I couldn’t care less if he was gay, sexuality isn’t important)

So am I being unreasonable in saying the partner doesn’t come over as it’s just too weird and I don’t want that example being set for my daughter

🤣

I actually do, but seeing as you think your voice matters more than anything else you won't care.

Ha, the irony.

People with DSDs (genuine people and not just the teens and young people online who claim to have them) have repeatedly and vociferously asked trans people and activists to stop co opting them into these conversations. And they are repeatedly ignored.

Once again, where is all this evidence?

I think using the pronouns they/them will work for anyone regardless of what they wish to be called. No one is being misgendered if you just use they/them but at the same time you aren't pandering to a delusion that makes you feel uncomfortable.

If the gender debate was a game of chess we'd be at the end game now.

People like Tandora have lost most of their pieces and have limited moves available. They can lose by pretending male and female are indefinable qualities and thereby make themselves seem ridiculous, or they can lose by conceding they are arguing for men to access women's spaces. They were never in a position to win fairly anyway, hence all the bullying, censoring and discrimination the TRAs have had to resort to over the last decade.

Who denied the existence of trans people on here ? I must have missed that. TA made it very clear they exist. What the majority are saying is that trans women are not women, women don’t need to give up their rights for trans women, who as biological men born in a patriarchy, already are privileged and had more rights to begin with. What people are saying that not all people who are suddenly trans suffer from gender dysmorphia, but are simply vulnerable people trying to find a community to belong to, fight off depression, find acceptance. What people are saying that calling a girl, who presents like a girl, ‘he’ is wrong grammar and the insistence on that language is gaslighting - as it is with ‘furries’ insist society pretends they are animals. What people are saying that chemical castration and body mutulating to change externally a body to appear as the other sex is similar to amputating healthy limbs of people with a mental illness who are asking for that and should not be so easily offered to children.
Nobody is trying to prove trans people don’t exist.

I think you’ll find it’s been “clearly demonstrated and explained in this thread.” 😂

😂😂😂

Do elaborate on these ‘observable’ and ‘testable’ aspects that no one has to date either observed or tested, unless you mean the stringy hair and dodgy eye make up rocked by certain groups?

I very much doubt they’ll find a blood test to reliably diagnose a wide and sometimes changing variety of identities which is determined by the self for a myriad of reasons and actually, when the idea of some medical testing was mooted by a trans researcher, there was outcry from many trans people and it was summarily shut down for *reasons.

LittleCharlotte I am so sorry that that particular poster refuses to listen to your pleas for intersex people to be left out of these conversations.

Absolutely this. Why are we women having to bend over backwards for a tiny minority of people?

I've nothing against them personally but I refuse to give up my female only spaces. We women have rights too and there are many of us. Not to mention that our rights are safeguarding related, which I think should be a priority above rights that are just about an identity or perceived identity. In the UK, transpersons are not denied any rights at all. Thankfully. I'm glad we aren't a transphobic or bigoted country. We really aren't . We aren't harming transpersons by telling them To use their birth sex pronouns or bathrooms etc

Any person can refer to themselves as anything they want. That is freedom of belief.

Everyone else doesn't have to play along or acknowledge it as real or show it any respect.
That's freedom FROM beliefs

This kind of manipulative bollocks has to stop.

First of all, variations in sex development describe a huge variety / vast diversity of conditions that affect millions of people around the world. These people do not have one hive mind, or one voice. there is barely any kind of cohesive community, and a considerable divergence/
polarity in opinion amongst people affected by these conditions as to what language to even use (eg intersex versus DSDs) let alone agreement on aspects of organisation/ advocacy - do people with VSCs belong as part of the LGBTIA spectrum etc.

Secondly, and regardless of these dynamics , if people are going to make claims about biology and sex development- and use such claims as the basis for forming opinions about law , political organisation and policy, then we have to be allowed to discuss the actual science of sex development in all its complexity. It is absolutely absurd , and highly manipulative , to continue to insist we are not allowed to discuss the realities of this, and no one who wants to have an honest conversation about this stuff is going to stand for it.

Also for you @Hoydenish

absolutely this !!! Of course trans people have the right identify how they want and can ask politely to be called by a certain pronoun. At the same time it's the other persons right to abide by that pronoun or not. No big deal. No one is harmed by refusing to use a chosen pronoun.

Furthermore , it isn’t me who is bringing people with VSCs into this conversation- they are part of the conversation. Implicitly , if not explicitly, every single time a (so called) “gender critical” insists that sex development is simple, always binary, determined at conception , reducible to chromosomes, etc. never was this demonstrated more clearly than the recent controversy over that poor boxer, who was
clearly a professional athlete , assigned female, with a DSD, but who was assumed to be and “accused” of being a trans woman , a cheat, and a male abuser of women.

No one is harmed by refusing to use a chosen pronoun

you clearly have zero knowledge and understanding of gender dysphoria.

There were 2 male boxers competing in women's boxing at the last Olympics.

They are men with DSDs who had ambiguous genitalia at birth and, largely because of the health care available where they were born, were incorrectly assumed to be girls.

Once they were of an age where they should have hit female puberty, it was clear that something was wrong. That's when the dsds were diagnosed and it was realised that they were male.

That must have come as a shock. It would have been a stressful and distressing time for them and their families. I have every sympathy for the children that they were.

But by the time they fought in the Olympics, they knew that they were men and had known for years. Their trainers knew that they were men.

But they still fought in the Women's category because they knew that they had a much greater chance of taking home a medal.

I have zero sympathy for the adult male cheats. I will save my sympathy for the women whose medals they stole.

Well it's easy enough to deal with that one. Just use their chosen name or they/them. No harm done. It's not comparable to a woman needing to access a safe space free of men because she has PTSD from being raped. I

Trauma is a whole different ball game from someone not using a correct pronoun.

This ☝️

👏👏👏💐

Agreed.

When those 20 or so male Spanish soldiers all self id as Transwomen Lesbians and got many new privileges, in an interview one said She would never use the female bathrooms out of respect for biological women !

This was picked up by a TRA group who accused Her of being a fake. She then threatened to sue them for transphobia.

Mumsnet is about WOMENS RIGHTS. If that is 'transphobic' to you, you have the problem, @Galwaygirlxxx . Threatening suicide as a method of control to force women to prioritise men is the weapon of abusers. Men committing suicide because they can't get what they want, is not womens problem. 'Be Kind' is what has got women in this situation. Strange how 'Be Kind' only goes ONE WAY. How males aren't kind to women and girls and stay out of our spaces. You've been conditioned and socialised to tell women and girls to 'Be Kind' to our own detriment. Have a long hard think about that.