Gender and pronouns

[Wyki]

Before I start, the daily mail and other papers can all fuck off

I’m prepared to be flamed for this as I’ve been here long enough to know how it all works but….

aibu to tell my son he can’t have his partner over any more

It’s a new relationship. My son is 21 and the new partner is 18

He barely works and is consequently on a low salary however he does help me with childcare (that I pay a minimal amount for)

the new partner is a very petite pink haired “girl” that does ballet and dance but uses the pronoun he/him

my 11 year old daughter is finding it confusing and asked if her brother is gay. I replied with “no because the partner is very feminine and is a girl despite the pronouns” (I couldn’t care less if he was gay, sexuality isn’t important)

So am I being unreasonable in saying the partner doesn’t come over as it’s just too weird and I don’t want that example being set for my daughter

Except that the differences to which you refer are either observable or testable and can be demonstrated to be objective reality in some way, whereas ‘trans’ is just a personal belief system.

Trans people claim to be the opposite sex, or even more impossibly, claim to have no sex for a variety of reasons but their self belief is not externally verifiable in any way.

So why are we still talking about DSDs when they have nothing to do with being 'trans'?

But this has nothing to do with trans people.

DSDs are physical health conditions affecting a tiny minority of people.

Identifying as transgender is probably best described as a mental health condition affecting a different small minority of people.

Whilst it's not impossible for someone to be in both groups, it's vanishingly unlikely.

That’s the point.

We get distracted by CAIS instead of the fact that the OP’s son’s girlfriend wants people to indulge her in a gender identity she can’t even be arsed to maintain herself.

Upshot is you don’t get to dictate how other people perceive you or the language they use to describe you.

This is not the gotcha you seem to think it is.

There absolutely is every need to mention variations in sex development as I have clearly demonstrated and explained in this thread.

I’m not mentioning “you” - I have zero knowledge of who you are or what condition you may or may not have. variations in sex development encompasses a huge spectrum of difference , and regardless of your own personal circumstances you have no grounds or legitimacy for silencing discussion about the reality of these differences in a conversation where people are making fanatical and unscientific assertions about “sex” and using these ideas to deny the existence of trans people.

For a long time they weren’t observable or testable- does that mean they didn’t exist? Did they only start to exist when we had the technologies to observe them?
Actually there are many many aspects of being trans that are observable and testable- in the same way that,
for example, autism is observable and testable. Yes we don’t have a specific blood test or some such, but that’s the same for all kinds of medical conditions, until- thanks to the development of new medical technologies- it isn’t.

You haven't demonstrated anything.

They have nothing to do with each other.

You have provided zero evidence that they are connected,

But nobody said or implied this but you….

No there isn't, because for almost everyone, biological sex really is as simple as "if you were born with a penis you are male and if you were both with a vagina you are female".

And the incredibly tiny number of people who may be exceptions to that rule are not the ones causing the problem here. (Except the likes of Caster Semenya in sport, I suppose.)

Oh and you still haven't told us what being trans actually means

You could turn this around and ask how does it affect a transwoman to use the bathroom of their birth sex? What is stopping them from doing that? Because in the past that's what they did and everyone was ok. Nobody was harmed by that approach. Many considerate and kind transwomen wouldn't dream of using ladies bathrooms. I

it costs nothing for a TW to use the bathroom for their birth sex. They don't have any safeguarding issues around it . They aren't in any danger emotionally or physically . Unlike actual cis women who have experienced trauma or may be at risk.

nobody ever got PTSD from being misgendered or being told focus the bathroom for their birth sex.

What?

So you don’t think that sex is determined at conception by chromosomes then?

So sorry- shall we start again- what do you mean by “male”?

Male means the same thing in humans as it does in other animals, Tandora.

They're the ones with the potential to beget rather than bear offspring.

The existence of a few people with DSDs doesn't mean the basic definition isn't workable.

Now let's turn this around.

What on earth do YOU think "male" means? I presume you have a better definition than the boring old biological sex related one. So let's hear it.

Oh we know trans people exist. As in there are people in this world who consider themselves to be trans. We’re simply saying they are not the sex they claim to be and as such have no right to enter opposite sex changing spaces and bathrooms or sports. It’s really that simple. Wear what you want. Give yourself whatever name you want. Just do not expect everybody else to have to play pretend with you.

”male”

DO you think being male is an actual thing, Tandora?

Trans people are part of the minority number of people for whom biological sex just isn’t that simple:

(numbers just aren’t as tiny as you think, but they are still nonetheless small).

Ding ding.

For the nth time, nothing to do with intersex people. You aren't proving anything by invoking us so please be respectful and leave us well alone.

Again, as above. I have no idea who you are or what your circumstance, but regardless you have no grounds or legitimacy for claiming an “us” or silencing a discussion about developmental differences in a conversation about the biology of sex determination:

No they aren't. Trans people are just as unlikely to have a DSD as the rest of the population, i.e. extremely unlikely.

Their biological sex is almost certainly as bog standard and binary as most other people's.

What they have is a mental health disorder, not a sexual development one.

No they aren't.

There's zero evidence for this

There is a huge body of scientific evidence for this

A trans women is biologically indistinguishable from what you would likely call a “cis” male. The only difference is they’ve self declared themselves to be a woman. Yet interestingly, there are a large number of transwomen who are very open about the fact that they know themselves to be men, they’re just happier identifying as women. So which trans people are lying? The ones who claim to have been born in the wrong body and have a magical lady brain or the ones who say “yeah, I’m a man, but I like looking like a woman”?

From real doctors or quack doctors?

I think taking a sledgehammer approach to this will cause more drama than it merits.

My DD is similarly confused by our NDN. I just said "do you think it's a boy or a girl?" Then I told her I agreed with her verdict. I asked did it matter if a boy wanted to use a girl's name, be referred to as she and wear skirts. She said no and seemed honestly a bit bored.

I am not saying I know the right approach because I truly do not agree that you can self select gender but when it comes to my DC I'd rather invite conversation than shut it down.