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Original poster

Gender and pronouns

1000 replies

Wyki · 10/04/2025 18:55

Before I start, the daily mail and other papers can all fuck off

I’m prepared to be flamed for this as I’ve been here long enough to know how it all works but….

aibu to tell my son he can’t have his partner over any more

It’s a new relationship. My son is 21 and the new partner is 18

He barely works and is consequently on a low salary however he does help me with childcare (that I pay a minimal amount for)

the new partner is a very petite pink haired “girl” that does ballet and dance but uses the pronoun he/him

my 11 year old daughter is finding it confusing and asked if her brother is gay. I replied with “no because the partner is very feminine and is a girl despite the pronouns” (I couldn’t care less if he was gay, sexuality isn’t important)

So am I being unreasonable in saying the partner doesn’t come over as it’s just too weird and I don’t want that example being set for my daughter

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
BundleBoogie · 11/04/2025 20:06

Tandora · 11/04/2025 19:37

So when you say in order to be a trans woman tou have to be “born male”, the measure for you is that they would have to be observed to have a penis at birth? Is that right?

Show quote history

We knew the sex of two of my children way before birth.

Tandora · 11/04/2025 20:09

BundleBoogie · 11/04/2025 20:01

The same measure as every other sane person throughout history 😁

In order to be born male, one has to be conceived male and then born.

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So being male is determined at conception? So we are going for the Trumpian definition of sex?

TheKeatingFive · 11/04/2025 20:15

Tandora · 11/04/2025 20:09

So being male is determined at conception? So we are going for the Trumpian definition of sex?

Show quote history

When do to you think sex is determined Tandora?

Ddakji · 11/04/2025 20:25

Tandora · 11/04/2025 20:09

So being male is determined at conception? So we are going for the Trumpian definition of sex?

Show quote history

Do you think sex being determined at conception was something that Trump made up?

Tell me, how do you think the human race (or indeed any mammal you care to mention) has managed to reproduce over millennia?

RhaenysRocks · 11/04/2025 20:28

Whilst I loathe and despise much of what Trump is, does, says, stands for etc I'm afraid that using "Trumpian' to try and discredit his biologically based definition of what two sexes are won't wash. On this one thing I am happy to agree with him.

HipTightOnions · 11/04/2025 20:29

Tandora doesn’t seem to think male is something a person can just be.

How do other animals manage it? No one is “ assigning” or “determining” the sex of, say, squirrels. Are they therefore sexless? How do they manage to reproduce?

TheKeatingFive · 11/04/2025 20:32

HipTightOnions · 11/04/2025 20:29

Tandora doesn’t seem to think male is something a person can just be.

How do other animals manage it? No one is “ assigning” or “determining” the sex of, say, squirrels. Are they therefore sexless? How do they manage to reproduce?

It really is a mystery

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 11/04/2025 20:34

RamblingEclectic · 11/04/2025 19:34

Pink hair doesn't make someone a woman, I'm not sure why it's being listed alongside vagina. I'd argue ballet and dance aren't automatically feminine from watching male ballet dancers nor really is being petite - that we culturally have little language for smaller men that isn't used to insult them is a cultural issue, not that there aren't plenty of smaller men.

It's your house, your rules. I wouldn't die on this hill, but I get whether others do for various reasons.

My teens are aware that I treat pronouns as feedback as that's how I've been doing it since the 80s, so if the young woman is in a flowery dress, yeah, he/him isn't going to come to mind or likely to mouth, but I'd also likely just use names.

Prior to the recent gender identity shift, it was fairly normal in some communities to use pronouns to refer to how masculine or feminine or androgynous someone presented rather than their sex. It wasn't women pretending to be men or even wanting to be called men - far from it - but the norms within particular subcultures that still exist, largely involving gay and bisexual people. Even now, I'm in female spaces with gay and bisexual women where it is viewed as funny to spend a day out and see how many of each pronoun one gets referred to by strangers.

That these groups have been largely erased by this loud and sometimes violent shift I think has only caused harm. It erases that for a long time people have played with presentation and gendered language for fun with no intent to gaslight or deceive or take over spaces. I got called he by strangers a lot when I was younger, because of how I looked, I have fond memories of old ladies saying 'thank you young man'. My teenage daughter found it great when the a local vicar compliment her presentation at school included calling her 'son' - no deception, her name was right there and it's a very frilly feminine name, but due to her build and her short hair, she is often read as male by strangers.

Like I said, I get why some want a very firm line on this, things in many areas have gone way too far, but I don't think a young woman requesting he/him is really a threat, and I don't think it should be placed in the same category as many of the things others are presuming a young woman who likes to be called he/him would also want. Maybe I missed it or it hasn't been said yet, but I haven't seen anything from the OP around the young woman identifying in a specific way - just the request for he/him pronouns and her son using the term 'partner'. With just the information given, I wouldn't even tell my kids when they were 11 that someone like this is a women pretending to be a boy, just that sometimes women prefer to be seen as masculine, even if not only masculine (the pink hair).

Interesting post, thank you.

Personally I think I can see two issues with calling a young woman "he/him".

Firstly I see this as a futile attempt to escape womanhood, and rather than accepting this as normal I think we should all be asking ourselves why so many young women don't want to be women and what we as a society should be doing about that. We should be making it nicer and better and safer to be a woman so that women don't want to identify as something else, rather than just nodding along.

Secondly, I think that trans men are a bit of a Trojan horse. If you accept that a female person can be a man and use he/him pronouns, how can you then say that a male person can't be a woman and refuse to use she/her pronouns? What's good for the goose is good for the gander (literally). So whilst those trans men might not be a direct threat to women, what they open the door to very much is.

TheKeatingFive · 11/04/2025 20:35

A quick google shows that IVF providers offer sex selection in countries where this is legal. If sex isn't determined at conception, how would they do that?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 11/04/2025 20:37

Tandora · 11/04/2025 20:09

So being male is determined at conception? So we are going for the Trumpian definition of sex?

Show quote history

This was understood to be the definition of sex long before Trump was even born, Tandora.

Tandora · 11/04/2025 20:42

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 11/04/2025 20:37

This was understood to be the definition of sex long before Trump was even born, Tandora.

Show quote history

Um it really wasn’t .
But all that aside- I’m interested in clarifying that PP’s meaning- for the purposes of clarifying her understanding of what being a trans woman means.

We were discussing what it means to be “born male”..

BreadInCaptivity · 11/04/2025 20:43

Tandora · 11/04/2025 20:09

So being male is determined at conception? So we are going for the Trumpian definition of sex?

Show quote history
  1. Yes, your sex is determined at conception.
  2. No, I’m advocating for scientific fact which has proven (since the dawn of humanity) that only a male and female can reproduce.
Tandora · 11/04/2025 20:44

BreadInCaptivity · 11/04/2025 20:43

  1. Yes, your sex is determined at conception.
  2. No, I’m advocating for scientific fact which has proven (since the dawn of humanity) that only a male and female can reproduce.
Show quote history
  1. Yes, your sex is determined at conception.

So you have a strictly chromosomal understanding of sex?

TheOtherRaven · 11/04/2025 20:44

TheKeatingFive · 11/04/2025 20:32

It really is a mystery

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Particularly when the poor things have no access to Trump.

BundleBoogie · 11/04/2025 20:48

Tandora · 11/04/2025 20:09

So being male is determined at conception? So we are going for the Trumpian definition of sex?

Show quote history

So you’re going there? 🤣🤣.

You mean the Trumpian definition that was twisted and deliberately misunderstood by bad faith actors across the world who were desperate to persuade us that everyone starts off as female to benefit men who wish they were women and that has been clarified by actual biologists to mean exactly what he said, that sex is DETERMINED at conception and the predetermined DIFFERENTIATION pathway between the two sexes is triggered at approx 6 weeks gestation.

That Trumpian definition??

Tandora · 11/04/2025 20:51

BundleBoogie · 11/04/2025 20:48

So you’re going there? 🤣🤣.

You mean the Trumpian definition that was twisted and deliberately misunderstood by bad faith actors across the world who were desperate to persuade us that everyone starts off as female to benefit men who wish they were women and that has been clarified by actual biologists to mean exactly what he said, that sex is DETERMINED at conception and the predetermined DIFFERENTIATION pathway between the two sexes is triggered at approx 6 weeks gestation.

That Trumpian definition??

Show quote history

that sex is DETERMINED at conception and the predetermined DIFFERENTIATION pathway between the two sexes is triggered at approx 6 weeks gestation

Ok but have you missed out the part where that pathway isn’t predetermined, but depends on various other factors which may or may not come into play?

mslava · 11/04/2025 21:01

Off topic but ‘Trumpian’ is whatever gets Trump votes. I’m sure if majority of his voters were gender ideology folk, Trump would be parroting their statements.

@TandoraWords have meanings. It’s not a ‘personal understanding’. Double check in any dictionary if you’re confused re what biological sex means. I have a feeling you knew what it stands for a few years ago without a shadow of a doubt. Did you overcomplicate things in your head to please people/ appear kind/ prove your accepting nature?

SpidersAreShitheads · 11/04/2025 21:01

TheKeatingFive · 11/04/2025 20:35

A quick google shows that IVF providers offer sex selection in countries where this is legal. If sex isn't determined at conception, how would they do that?

Gah. Don’t be so annoying. You and your pesky fact-based answers.

BelfastBard · 11/04/2025 21:02

Tandora · 11/04/2025 20:51

that sex is DETERMINED at conception and the predetermined DIFFERENTIATION pathway between the two sexes is triggered at approx 6 weeks gestation

Ok but have you missed out the part where that pathway isn’t predetermined, but depends on various other factors which may or may not come into play?

Edited
Show quote history

It is pre determined though. If it wasn’t sex selection for IVF wouldn’t be possible. Unless you imagine they develop a foetus to 6/7 weeks gestation and then implant it…

And to further add, you seem unclear as to what differentiation actually is. Care to elaborate on your understanding?

BreadInCaptivity · 11/04/2025 21:03

Tandora · 11/04/2025 20:42

Um it really wasn’t .
But all that aside- I’m interested in clarifying that PP’s meaning- for the purposes of clarifying her understanding of what being a trans woman means.

We were discussing what it means to be “born male”..

Edited
Show quote history

If a trans woman was an adult human female the prefix trans would not be needed.

Which is exactly why the trans lobby seek to erase linguistic boundaries.

We have no more control over our sex than we do our hair/eye colour, height or any other aspect of our body.

It is of course possible to alter some of these attributes, but no amount of henna is going to make me a natural redhead.

I can put in contact lenses to make my blue eyes appear green.

What is not possible is to change my genetic profile- which includes my sex and pretending otherwise is both foolhardy and dangerous.

The harm this ideology does to vulnerable young people is unforgivable.

Yet you cite “Trumpian” - oh the irony….

The TRA playbook thrives on Trumpian/Populist tropes.

Slogans, catchphrases and lack of nuance abound along with a good dose of bullying, whataboutary and outright lies.

Your posts are illuminating but not in the way you think they are I suspect.

cramptramp · 11/04/2025 21:04

Your house, your rules. I wouldn’t be having her in the house either.

MixedBananas · 11/04/2025 21:05

Mental health issues belongs in institutions being managed and medicated and counseled not in peoples houses and forced upon others to play the games.

BundleBoogie · 11/04/2025 21:06

Tandora · 11/04/2025 20:51

that sex is DETERMINED at conception and the predetermined DIFFERENTIATION pathway between the two sexes is triggered at approx 6 weeks gestation

Ok but have you missed out the part where that pathway isn’t predetermined, but depends on various other factors which may or may not come into play?

Edited
Show quote history

Can you explain what those ‘various other factors’ are and what might or might not trigger them to ‘come into play’?

Can you also confirm how IVF clinics can offer sex selection of embryos at day 6 (when there are enough cells to take a sample) and how your ‘factors’ might affect that? Are you suggesting that IVF clinics lie to their patients?

BreadInCaptivity · 11/04/2025 21:07

Tandora · 11/04/2025 20:44

  1. Yes, your sex is determined at conception.

So you have a strictly chromosomal understanding of sex?

Show quote history

Yes. Because I’m not a fuckwit.

However I also understand that some people assume a gender identity that doesn’t correspond with their sex.

They are welcome to do so. As long as that choice does not infringe sex based rights.

JHound · 11/04/2025 21:07

BelfastBard · 11/04/2025 18:45

Presumably you’re aware of the concept of social contagion…
As an example, my eldest child now early 20s, somehow managed to know no less than six people with DID. All teenagers during lockdown. All spent a significant amount of time on Tik Tok. All somehow by some weird twist of fate, came down with an incredibly rare mental disorder with which they had multiple “alters” and “split personalities”. These teenagers (and thousands of others) dedicated hours to watching this content, posting videos of themselves “splitting” online, created full and vibrant lives for these “alters” and spent time on a website dedicated to logging all their alters details and interacting with others with alleged DID.
Without exception, every one of these same teens, and many more in her peer group, subsequently came out as trans or non binary (a good cluster of them after a visit from a LGBT youth organisation to the school, at one point there were 12 in the one year group who were trans).
Of the handful I knew personally and well ( I had watched many of them grow up) they were ADAMANT about their new identity. Insisted that they had “always known”, tried out new names, used opposite sex pronouns. I overheard many a tearful phone call about how they’d been “misgendered” and all the hate and bigotry they perceived they were experiencing.

I would say the majority of them, or at least the ones I knew well, were neurodiverse.
This is social contagion. And vulnerable young people trying to find an explanation for their feelings of being displaced and uncomfortable in their skin. Trans is a brightly packaged ready made community of friends ready to welcome them and give them an identity and an explanation. And it is desperately harmful to them.

Show quote history

I’m not talking about teenagers but adults who happen to be transgender. And the ways in which some people, depending on their circles, can end up knowing a disproportionate number of transgender people.

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