Gender and pronouns

[Wyki]

Before I start, the daily mail and other papers can all fuck off

I’m prepared to be flamed for this as I’ve been here long enough to know how it all works but….

aibu to tell my son he can’t have his partner over any more

It’s a new relationship. My son is 21 and the new partner is 18

He barely works and is consequently on a low salary however he does help me with childcare (that I pay a minimal amount for)

the new partner is a very petite pink haired “girl” that does ballet and dance but uses the pronoun he/him

my 11 year old daughter is finding it confusing and asked if her brother is gay. I replied with “no because the partner is very feminine and is a girl despite the pronouns” (I couldn’t care less if he was gay, sexuality isn’t important)

So am I being unreasonable in saying the partner doesn’t come over as it’s just too weird and I don’t want that example being set for my daughter

Pink hair doesn't make someone a woman, I'm not sure why it's being listed alongside vagina. I'd argue ballet and dance aren't automatically feminine from watching male ballet dancers nor really is being petite - that we culturally have little language for smaller men that isn't used to insult them is a cultural issue, not that there aren't plenty of smaller men.

It's your house, your rules. I wouldn't die on this hill, but I get whether others do for various reasons.

My teens are aware that I treat pronouns as feedback as that's how I've been doing it since the 80s, so if the young woman is in a flowery dress, yeah, he/him isn't going to come to mind or likely to mouth, but I'd also likely just use names.

Prior to the recent gender identity shift, it was fairly normal in some communities to use pronouns to refer to how masculine or feminine or androgynous someone presented rather than their sex. It wasn't women pretending to be men or even wanting to be called men - far from it - but the norms within particular subcultures that still exist, largely involving gay and bisexual people. Even now, I'm in female spaces with gay and bisexual women where it is viewed as funny to spend a day out and see how many of each pronoun one gets referred to by strangers.

That these groups have been largely erased by this loud and sometimes violent shift I think has only caused harm. It erases that for a long time people have played with presentation and gendered language for fun with no intent to gaslight or deceive or take over spaces. I got called he by strangers a lot when I was younger, because of how I looked, I have fond memories of old ladies saying 'thank you young man'. My teenage daughter found it great when the a local vicar compliment her presentation at school included calling her 'son' - no deception, her name was right there and it's a very frilly feminine name, but due to her build and her short hair, she is often read as male by strangers.

Like I said, I get why some want a very firm line on this, things in many areas have gone way too far, but I don't think a young woman requesting he/him is really a threat, and I don't think it should be placed in the same category as many of the things others are presuming a young woman who likes to be called he/him would also want. Maybe I missed it or it hasn't been said yet, but I haven't seen anything from the OP around the young woman identifying in a specific way - just the request for he/him pronouns and her son using the term 'partner'. With just the information given, I wouldn't even tell my kids when they were 11 that someone like this is a women pretending to be a boy, just that sometimes women prefer to be seen as masculine, even if not only masculine (the pink hair).

Prior to the recent gender identity shift, it was fairly normal in some communities to use pronouns to refer to how masculine or feminine or androgynous someone presented rather than their sex.

Was it? Genuine question? What communities?

Well firstly, outside of the very very few exceptions where it isn’t obvious on account of the male genitals… a simple cheek swab can accurately determine sex. Such a test would only be necessary where there’s any ambiguity around the development of the genitals in cases of DSD or similar.
It’s really not as complicated as you’re making out. For millennia humans have accurately been able to deduce the sex of our infants (in fact, we can sex select fertilised embryos for IVF with around 99% accuracy but that’s a whole other discussion). But now, somehow, in the last 20 years, you’d have us believe that simply looking at a child’s body when they’re born is so wildly inaccurate that it can’t be relied upon?

Always an education seeing transactivism in full flow complete with the "nobody can ever tell", TWAW, men claiming to be women have been in women's toilets / showers / changing rooms for centuries, medics can't accurately sex babies etc.

The sad thing is that children are being gaslit to believe that this nonsense is true.

A doctor will “record” it. But they don’t “determine” it…

So when you say in order to be a trans woman tou have to be “born male”, the measure for you is that they would have to be observed to have a penis at birth? Is that right?

What I've learnt is that the TRA side will say literally anything to try to argue their point, regardless of how ridiculous it is

Very true. And that's where the coercive control comes in when the public are informed that if you challenge this anti fact , anti science nonsense you're a bigot and will be punished. It's why all this has got so far.

No. I’m saying that in order to be born male, they’d have to have been born male. If a male baby was kept in a darkened room from birth until death, would they not have been male simply because no one had observed the presence of their penis? Does any thing cease to be that thing if it is not observed by someone else to have been so?

Maybe I wasn’t on those threads.

I’m asking you now. What is trans?

If you refuse to answer I can only assume you have no answer that refutes anything I’ve said on this thread.

You are obsessed with genitals.

I don't know why the medical establishment don't revolt at this nonsense.

Imagine suggesting that doctors routinely get babies sex wrong? 🫠

Yeah, well I hate to get all logical and, you know, science based on you, but a split second x-ray instantly shows whether someone is born male or female.

Trans women can wear all the frocks and sparkly earrings they want, but if an archeologist exhumes their bones in 100 years, one glance will tell them that it is the skeleton of a man. A man.

Or just a simple cheek swab.

Nothing invasive or embarrassing.

Ok so for you a person can be a trans woman even if no one observed them to be male at birth?

So in your mind, for example, women with CAIS are trans women?

😂 I’m not the person who brought genitals up. It’s the transphobes who are obsessed with genitals.(and cheek swabs apparently)

Assume away- you would be wrong. Just like you assume all those things about trans folks right?

Still waiting for that definition of trans.

Ahem:

Tandora · Today 16:44
"Oh well pink hair- that settles it 😂😂.
Also why the fuck have you seen your son’s partner’s vagina?!"

😂

🤭

Yes? OP said she knew her son’s partner was a girl because she had a vagina? I was concerned that she had seen her vagina and questioned this disturbing twist to the OP. Like I said, I didn’t bring any conversation about genitals up… then others started talking about penises as they always do.

That’s fine. You have repeatedly refused to answer this question, so you can’t whine about people not agreeing with your undefined position. You just come across as a bit of a fool.

The same measure as every other sane person throughout history 😁

In order to be born male, one has to be conceived male and then born.

There appears to be zero ambiguity about what sex the girlfriend is.

The OP's son (who's in the best possible position to know) does not consider himself gay in dating her, for example.

YANBU OP.
it’s confusing for young kids.
I took my DC to an activity recently and my son said ‘what is that lady doing?’ - the ‘lady’ then proceeded to scold DC saying she is non-binary not a lady. My DC is 6! Totally fucking nuts. I was livid, how is 6 year old suppose to know?
(BTW visually to look at was female, used a male
name however).