To NOT feel guilty that my kids are in childcare?

[Kanfuzed123]

Inspired by the childcare eating a £45k salary and the anti nursery sentiment from a few posters on there as being inferior for a child.

anyone else not feel in the slightest guilty that there kids are in nursery and have been post maternity leave?

yeah when they cried at drop off was rough and I called into the check out they were but that soon settled. They do lovely events for the parents and upload lots of amazing activities they do, they’ve made fantastic friends.

I could’ve reduced my hours but I didn’t, we could’ve maybe managed on one salary (glad we didn’t when rates shot up) but I went back FT when dc 1 was 15 months (used annual leave for part time before then) and dc2 was 13 months.

anyone else just not feel guilty? I like the lifestyle we can get when we’re working, especially since the 15 funded hrs and now 30, it’s so affordable. (Eldest is in school and youngest now has the 30 hrs) bill is less than £400 a month inc club etc. I like having something else to focus on too.

im not alone or am I?

This doesn’t seem like an you objective study:

„She said that the findings may have been affected by the fact that the observations on children's behaviour were made by mothers, and working mothers may have answered the question slightly differently from those not in the labour force.”

As seen in this thread, all working mothers seem to have convinced themselves that their children „thrive” in nursery.

@HJA87

As seen in this thread, all working mothers seem to have convinced themselves that their children „thrive” in nursery.

That works both ways around though. There are plenty of posters on here who have convinced themselves that working mothers are harming their children on thin evidence. All mothers have an inherent bias toward telling themselves that what they are doing is optimal for their children, partly because there's a lot of confirmation bias and partly because many of us don't have a choice. And because the science isn't really compelling or settled or either side of the argument, both groups can make a reasonable case that they are right. Bottom line is we don't really know, any of us. Certainly there's no indisputable, case closed argument.

But it's one thing to have a civilised discussion about the merits and shortcomings of childcare, while caveating that there are some reasons to be concerned. It's quite another for people who have a choice in the matter to make others feel that they should feel guilty over something they have no control over.

There are two or three posters on here who have actively gone out of their way to tell mothers who use childcare they should feel guilty because they are damaging their children. Which makes them beneath contempt.

As seen in this thread, all working mothers seem to have convinced themselves that their children „thrive” in nursery.

As I said upthread, my children loved nursery. They are now healthy, happy, well adjusted, high performing kids. I'm not trying to sound smug here, that's just my experience. So in what sense would I be wrong if I said my kids 'thrived' in nursery?

Because my children have thrived. I don’t need a research paper to tell me what I can see with my own eyes. I have two healthy, happy, confident, intelligent and social little girls, who love spending time with me and love playing with their friends at nursery.

Maybe they’d be exactly the same if I was at home with them, I don’t know, but what I do know is that nursery has caused them no ill effects whatsoever.

And for what its worth, and I can only speak for my own child, but like @TheKeatingFive and @Nottodaythankyou123 and others, my daughter loved being with her childminder, who was almost like a family member to her. I can't speak for childcare on a social basis but I can promise you it didn't damage her.

Thank you! Thought I was going mad seeing some of the posts on here!!

I don’t understand the relevance of these papers people keep linking (especially if they’re not specifically based on uk childcare system). Surely it matters more how it affects your individual child on a practical basis, rather than studies from the 50s showed that neglected kids in foster care in the US had attachment issues.

I’m absolutely confident my children have flourished and I won’t apologise to the posters on here who seem to want my kids to be neurotic, anxious wrecks because I had the AUDACITY to need to go to work (seemingly, just because they had the choice not to). It’s shameful, and I hope they set a better example to their children on how to speak to people than they’ve demonstrated on here.

@Nottodaythankyou123

I don’t understand the relevance of these papers people keep linking (especially if they’re not specifically based on uk childcare system). Surely it matters more how it affects your individual child on a practical basis, rather than studies from the 50s showed that neglected kids in foster care in the US had attachment issues.

Indeed. More to the point, I don't understand the psychology of someone who would get a buzz out of telling complete strangers on the internet that they are damaging their children by doing something they have to do for their survival.

It's one thing wanting to discuss the pros and cons, although the zealotry that some people pursue over some of this evidence makes me raise an eyebrow or two. But judging other people for doing something they have limited control over like this is breathtakingly spiteful.

Maybe because they are thriving? I'd say that they know that their child is thriving better than someone on the internet who has never met them.

My children are thriving too. I see it with my own eyes every day.

Thanks for the links. I can well imagine that it's beneficial to be a working mother. My argument would be (and what the article I linked to points out) is that it is very important to differentiate based on age. Both articles you linked to don't mention age at all.

Sending your child to nursery at 1 month is very different to 1 year which is different to 2 years old etc. At 2 years old, most children would get a lot of benefit from the socialisation and the activities offered at nursery. At 1 month old, children don't need socialisation and instead need the safety and security of their primary attachment figure.

I think we have a lot to learn from countries like Sweden that offer 18 months paid parental leave. Unfortunately, as long as people insist that nursery doesn't have a single drawback, then the government has the perfect excuse to not extend parental leave here in the UK.

I believe you that your children are thriving. I trust that you know your own children.

That said, kids can thrive even if their parents are struggling with money. But is that the ideal? Kids can thrive without a big garden to run around in, but wouldn't it be nice to have one? Kids can thrive in a large class of over 30 kids, but surely a smaller one of 15 children would be better?

Kids can go to full time nursery at 6 months and still grow into well-adjusted adults. It might be a bit more difficult for them though, or more sensitive children might struggle etc.

If we as a society insist that the current nursery set-up is the ideal, then the government will never extend parental leave or invest more in early childhood at all. Lots of countries offer better, longer, higher-paid parental leave - wouldn't you want that here too?

Like I said, there are exceptions to the rule.

I think handling things at work is a bit different than handling everything that goes into managing a family, though some jobs have similarities… Statistically, most men aren’t going to be managers in their positions.

https://www.benenden.co.uk/be-healthy/body/man-flu/#:~:text=Scientists%20have%20discovered%20that%20men,bouts%20of%20flu%20and%20viruses.

I have noticed, being in the military, that whenever we get less sleep, the women in my unit tend to be more emotionally volatile than the men. But to me, that just suggests that maybe I don’t belong there, and I’m better off at home where I can nap when DD goes down, and (mostly) control my sleep schedule. Even when she was a baby and waking up to feed every 45 minutes, at least I still had the ability to nap during the day to catch up a bit.

It's tricky because as far as I'm aware, Sweden have a less sexist society. Until we change that, I'm not sure the Swedish setup would work the same here unless we force men to take parental leave.

I'm all for men having more than 2 weeks parental leave.

How does the 18 months leave work in Sweden? Is it shared out as the parents please, can one parent take all of it etc?

I'm not completely against extending leave but it needs to be expected that men take it too, otherwise it's just going to hurt women in the workplace.

I don’t think anyone is saying it’s 100% ideal though. I work, out of necessity; in an ideal world I wouldn’t work and I wouldn’t send them to work. In the real world however, I need to work and had PND that meant even if I didn’t need to, I’d probably have sent them very part time.

I don’t think anyone is arguing in an ideal world 6 month old babies would be in nursery full time, the argument is simply that actually, if your child has to go to nursery, they’ll probably thrive regardless and some of these spiteful scenarios about how you don’t love your children aren’t true.

The government hasn’t upped paid maternity leave to scandavian levels because we all think it works perfectly at the moment, it’s because there’s absolutely no political will in this economic climate to do so.

Tbh honest I think part of the chippyness from that poster and similar is that I think a lot of women didn’t really get on well with work, and haven’t really achieved much but when they had children, because they’re really not that challenging to manage, they found something they were good at.
They know have that feeling they’ve always desired of feeling really accomplished and good at something, but they’re frustrated that society doesn’t really recognise being good at being a SAHM. So it’s a real anticlimax

Mine goes 4 full days and 1 short day (9-3) on my non working day. She’s become so much social and confident since starting. No guilt (although I do feel sad on the rare occasions she cries at handover)

It is usually the mum that is the lower earner unfortunately.

I'm the higher earner. I was still asked if I was going back and 'for how many days?' when I said yes.

Guess who was never asked? My lower earner husband.

I am not surprised!

Same queen

Well it seems that some people do think it's ideal. I wrote earlier that Pretending that there are no negatives connected to nursery whatsoever is like an ostrich putting it's head in the sand and then another poster replied directly to that comment with "I would take issue with the idea that it’s beyond debate that there are negatives associated with nursery."

So yeah, some people think there is never anything wrong with nursery.

Scandinavian countries give such great parental leave (split between both parents) because as a society they agree that it is more beneficial for very young children to be taken care of at home. I've heard from a friend that most nurseries in Sweden point blank refuse to take a child under 1 year old. They have demanded better for themselves and their children and so the government delivered.

Judging by this thread, the UK is full of people who believe nursery is the best choice - in which case, why would they ever pressure the government to extend parental leave? I guess we'll keep the status quo for the foreseeable future.

its so bizarre your friend said that. I used to work in Oslo and the nursery staff would bring babies up to the office to be breastfed. It’s a small city so you could be right next to your baby, popping in as you like.

I think actually it’s possible to think that in an ideal world children would be at home but also know that practically there’s nothing wrong with nursery (as in, I know my child has thrived so in reality there’s nothing wrong with it for us although in a parallel universe I’d rather they were at home with me maybe). Those don’t necessarily go hand in hand.

But it’s not just about paid parental leave for longer - the cost of living here is now such that two wages are often required, which is why people go back to work. Who would foot the bill for one parent to take 18 months off fully paid? The government? How would that go down with people who don’t want children or older people who’ve had their children? There are still many employers who will only pay stat pay, so they won’t be willing to be compelled to pay full wages for 18 months. Are we saying you get a percentage of your wage for that time, in which case given the COL many parents would still end up back in work before 18 months.

It’s not just about parents of young children currently, who probably would push more for improved parental leave - it would need to be supported by the majority, and given the views of many on maternity leave and SAHM as being a holiday that’s unlikely to happen.

Fundamentally we have a different mindset here than they do in Scandinavian countries (not just in relation to parental leave, they’re miles ahead in many areas imo) and so something like that is not going to be a vote winner with 85% of the electorate. The government hasn’t just refused to change their policies because mums love nursery so much, it’s because fundamentally they know given the mindset of many in this country towards parenthood, it wouldn’t be that popular.

Why are people constantly asking for or posting so-called 'research' into the 'outcomes' of childcare?

The decision as to whether to use childcare or not, or a nanny or childminder, is very personal and immediate. For instance, your child was screaming at nursery drop-offs and was becoming unbearable, nobody's going to think, "Oh well, a study showed that the impact of childcare for the under 3s had no impact on A-level outcomes" or whatever the 'measure of successful outcome' may be. People either have to use childcare, or they decide it's a better opinion on balance, in their specific circumstances. But the decision is made in the here and now. Surely nobody thinks of their children as an experiment - a projected 'outcome?'

Because the rhetoric is that nursery is ‘bad’ for under 2s…. But no one is able to say why?

weve had the ‘naturally’ argument. Well that doesn’t hold much water because school in and as of itself isn’t a natural phenomenon so all children would be with their parents. We also know that in hunter gathering societies, they are generally a lot more equal and child rearing is seen as much more of a communal task.

weve had the ‘attachment theory’ except that outdated study from the 1950s looked at children in foster care for extended periods of time returning to their parents, not modern children in a British nursery. So its inappropriate to draw conclusions from that.

weve had object relations psychoanalysis from the 70s. The flaw in that logic is hopefully very clear as psychoanalysis is all supposition and has deeply problematic roots.

so we’ve be asking what is the proof point that it’s not good or ideal for children. Well the only proof would be long term outcomes, in a subject and control group when the results are adjusted for variables

@melua

Why are people constantly asking for or posting so-called 'research' into the 'outcomes' of childcare?

I can’t speak for everyone but from my perspective as someone who had no choice to use childcare because I feel if people are posting scaremongering material implying that childcare is bad for children there’s a burden on them to demonstrate that there is some validity to their points as opposed to just judgment.

It’s a bit like the analogy of someone running into a crowded theatre and shouting “Fire!”. If you’re going to start a discussion on something highly controversial and emotive which many people have no control over you owe it to them to have thought this through and researched it.

To their credit some posters have done this and are posting reasonably credible sources. Others are just being inflammatory and goady based on nothing more than their own prejudice.