To NOT feel guilty that my kids are in childcare?

[Kanfuzed123]

Inspired by the childcare eating a £45k salary and the anti nursery sentiment from a few posters on there as being inferior for a child.

anyone else not feel in the slightest guilty that there kids are in nursery and have been post maternity leave?

yeah when they cried at drop off was rough and I called into the check out they were but that soon settled. They do lovely events for the parents and upload lots of amazing activities they do, they’ve made fantastic friends.

I could’ve reduced my hours but I didn’t, we could’ve maybe managed on one salary (glad we didn’t when rates shot up) but I went back FT when dc 1 was 15 months (used annual leave for part time before then) and dc2 was 13 months.

anyone else just not feel guilty? I like the lifestyle we can get when we’re working, especially since the 15 funded hrs and now 30, it’s so affordable. (Eldest is in school and youngest now has the 30 hrs) bill is less than £400 a month inc club etc. I like having something else to focus on too.

im not alone or am I?

And everything here is spot on. Most of the research used to back up the theory of nursery being damaging is flawed or outdated.

Hand on heart I wish I didn’t have to work full time. I have always worked full time (gone back each time after four children and short Mat leaves) and now I have to continue because of the expenses that I myself have created. I have made choices such as buying a house in a nice area at a price which requires two salaries. My children get to enjoy playdates in a nice area in a nice house in a nice garden. If I didn’t work yes their bellies would be full and they’d have a roof over their heads but those extra things that I can provide for them are nice. State schools but we can afford private one to one tuition to help them. We can consider going away to a resort in the summer. We can afford cleaners and a nanny so we have 100% family time on weekends and don’t need to run around doing errands or organising the house. I’m not saying what I do is best (I kind of just fell into this way of life climbing up the ladder at work and earning more and then bringing in cleaners and all that). I do feel sad sometimes that I’m not with the kids as much as I would like and sometimes think of packing it all in but then what - we downsize and I get what half a day back let’s say two or three days a week. I work from home a lot which helps. A bit of a stream of consciousness there but wanted to share!!

I also feel that mothers tend to have an inflated sense of their own importance in children’s lives. Why is the mother necessarily better than the key worker at nursery who gives lots of cuddles? Why am I necessarily better than a nanny at helping with homework. Sharing the parenting journey with these qualified women is not necessarily a bad thing.

Had to cut my reply short because I was taking my eldest to her dance lesson (the deadbeat that I am)

but as a general principle when one makes an absolute statement, you have to qualify that with evidence. It’s fine to use anecdotal feedback, such as I didn’t feel like nursery was the right option or my child was miserable at nursery and it made their behaviour worse, but you can’t turn those into generic sweeping statements and say nursery is bad for children under two or not ideal or whatever. To support statements such as that you have to bring evidence and the evidence has to hold up to scrutiny. The evidence brought as to why it’s bad for all children across the board, hasn’t held up to scrutiny.
i could see the argument for a breastfed baby under 6 months old, where their main source of nutrition is milk, although that could be mitigated through pumping.

and why ‘outcomes’ well ultimately that’s the only way you measure anything. Anything is an outcome, its how we know smoking is very bad for you, one cigarette in the round probably has negligible impact but smoking significantly increase the chance of adverse health outcomes (copd, cancer etc)

All these sort of jokes about being a deadbeat or being an amazing mum because you do Disney land just make you seem really insecure in your choice. Just send you kids to do nursery and get on with your guilt free life surely?

You can't predict 'outcomes' though. All anyone can try to do is what's best for their baby in the here and now.

Theories on child development are relevant because they can help people understand their baby's lives experience at given stages, from an infant perspective. For instance, when people say things like "oh nobody remembers the early years anyway, so it doesn't really matter where they are"... if they had a better understanding of infant development they would realise that this kind of statement spectacularly misses the point.

But nobody is going to make a decision on using or not using childcare based on some academic paper purporting to identify 'outcomes.' Nobody would say, "oh my child is miserable in daycare, but no worries, I have a study to prove x,y,z outcome in a sample population.' Or, "My child seems ok in nursery right now, but I've seen a study about negative 'outcomes' so henceforth, I'm going to be a SAHM, even though it will make me depressed and we won't be able to afford anything."

3 of my children went to playgroup from when they were two. I have no regrets because it helped them (one of my children had a speech delay) and they had fun.
I wasn’t working but that didn’t mean they couldn’t go and benefit from the learning and social opportunities that playgroup offered them.

I know you think you ate with that one… but it’s so generic, a joke means I must be insecure… yawn.

its very blatantly tongue in cheek. Disney whilst super fun does not a good or bad parent make, same for dance class. My Disney comments were about the experiences with my children that working affords us and I’m glad I can give that to them, as I’ve said, my regret won’t be nursery because but it would’ve been the things I couldn’t afford to do them and show them if i wasn’t working

I don’t know it just feels a bit ‘the lady doth protest too much’

I don’t think you understand research.

if there was evidence that said children who go to nursery under 2 have an absolute risk of xyz of developing mental health problems in childhood, then yeah, you can make an informed decision on evidence. Same with why I rear face my children and will do until they are at least 6, because there is evidence to show that in the event of an accident they have the best outcomes.

there is evidence to show that married women with children do have worse outcomes and worse mental health and don’t live as long as single women. So can acknowledge that as being an observed trend and to take steps to mitigate those risks.

theres a lot of theories on childhood development, Do you take the Oedipus complex and penis envy seriously in your day to day life? Because those are the foundations of object relations? I think it’s really important to know that the authors of attachment theory who studied children in 1950s foster care didn’t intend for the research to be bundled up and applied for nursery in 21st century Britain. That’s what happens when journalists who don’t understand research pick up on catchy headlines

Ah another generic platitude. Nice work

It’s important to acknowledge too that parents who use childcare remain the primary care givers and central influence. We don’t hand our children over to nursery at a few months old and pick them up several years later!

The entire parenting journey involves constantly observing, evaluating, making decisions, adapting, to ensure we are doing our best in raising our children. I made the decision to return to work after mat leave, we researched different nurseries and forms of childcare. If ds had struggled to settle, dh and I would have discussed, reconsidered, looked at whether a different environment would be preferable… As parents we know our own children best, whether we work or not.

There is a lot more to child development theory than Freud OP, But I think you know this.

You don't want to engage with anything to do with child development theory or infant psychology. You just want to ridicule the entire disciplines. All you seem to want is a piece of paper projecting ok 'outcomes.' Ok then.

@melua

You can't predict 'outcomes' though. All anyone can try to do is what's best for their baby in the here and now.

But if you can’t predict outcomes (which I agree with - the data is still inconclusive), what on earth is to be gained by making women feel guilty about doing something they can’t control?

My DS did 8-5 . I didn't feel guilty either

But one poster quoted that children under 2 are in the ‘paranoid schizoid’ state of development that is wholly psychoanalysis which is not evidence backed and is just supposition, the groundwork and founding discourse of psychoanalysis is Freudian aka deeply misogynistic and problematic. Psychoanalysis is basically continental philosophy wrapped in the language of science.

you’ve not brought forth infant psychology. You brought a 1950s study on foster care and then said that was representative of all toddlers in nursery.

man you really don’t understand the concept of outcomes do you? It’s the proof points of all this infant psychology you’re claiming to reference 🤦‍♀️

I'm a childcare provider and a lot of my parents say how lucky they feel that the children get so many opportunities with me, that they wouldn't otherwise get.

How do you feel about the comments in the thread that staff in your profession are barely qualified (only a few GCSEs I think was the claim) disinterested and teenagers?

@Kanfuzed123 it's what the government think too. It's what people say to my face as well.

I don't care, I have a degree, I have lots of CPD qualifications, and we get inspected on our curriculum so people can judge away, I know I provide a good education.

Really important info for all those maligning nursery workers and I bet you’re not the minority with your qualifications and experience either

@Thepeopleversuswork - 'outcomes' will be mediated through so many other intersecting factors in childhood. My point is, there needs to be more focus on the 'getting there' -ie. quality of life from an infants point of view in the critical early years. Childhood is what happens while you're waiting for outcomes.

To be clear, It's not about making anyone feel guilty or trying to paint nurseries are inherently bad. It's asking for a more nuanced perspective on the 'best' way to use nurseries - not solely from the parents' perspective, but from the baby's. Change the lens.

Obviously, an 18 month-old who goes to a nursery for a few days a week, is a totally different proposition to a three month old baby who is in 8-5 every day. This goes without saying.

It's a very triggering subject because everyone needs to think they're doing their best for their children. But that shouldn't mean we should shy away from a discussion that directly concerns the day-to-day lives of the most vulnerable in society.

For instance - Are we ok with mum's being forced to put tiny babies into full-time childcare? Is this acceptable in our society 2025? Where do we draw the line? Do we really believe this can ever be in a child's best interests, even if mum argues it's in hers? How can governments give families more choice and flexibility? These kinds of questions need to be addressed, and it's where the govt should be focusing, in my view. But they won't, because they are more concerned with managing GDP figures.

There seems to be lots of reference to edge cases here to make a point against nurseries.

How many 3 month old babies in the uk are in full time nursery? I'd hazard that number is minuscule if it exists at all.

People are most definitely able to say why full-time nursery is 'bad' for under 2s (though like I've said many times, something can be not ideal and yet still the best option given a family's individual circumstances).

This graph for example, taken from the article I linked to earlier.

As taken from the article: "The normal pattern (blue line below) is for cortisol levels to start high in the morning and decline during the day.

In daycare (pink line above) cortisol levels go up and up through the day. That is, children become increasingly stressed throughout whole-day daycare. This finding is very consistent and turns up in studies in (at least) the US, France, Germany, the Netherlands and Norway.

The graph above is for children in daycare morning and afternoon: children who are in for half-days show a less elevated cortisol response or even a normal one."

It happens though @TheKeatingFive and it's legal. I think some nurseries can take babies as young as 8 weeks, full time.

Outcomes can exist in childhood too.. come on.

Not sure if the photo didn't post it if it's just being delayed. I'm trying again: