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I don't understand how this is manslaughter and not murder

221 replies

lifeonmars100 · 08/04/2025 15:15

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/apr/08/two-teenagers-found-guilty- by of-manslaughter-of-80-year-old-man-in-leicestershire-park?CMP=sharebtnurl

I am sure I am not alone in being disturbed and upset by this awful case. I can't stop thinking about this poor man, setting off for a stroll with his dog and then to be the victim of a vicious unprovoked attack of such severity that he died as a result of it. I can't understand how the boy was found guilty of manslaughter and not murder. I appreciate that a murder conviction hinges on "intent" i.e what was in the defendant's mind when they committed the offence and of course I was not in court to hear all the evidence but as a layperson I just don't get it. Maybe things will be clearer when they are sentenced. I feel so sorry for the family, the details are so awful and will surely haunt them forever. The fact that the girl filmed the attack is truly sickening but seems par for the course these days. Mr Kohli must have been terrified and in so much pain, what a terrible end to his life

Two teenagers found guilty of manslaughter of 80-year-old man in Leicestershire park

Bhim Kohli, who was walking his dog, was racially abused, kicked and punched in ‘gratuitous’ attack

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/apr/08/two-teenagers-found-guilty-of-manslaughter-of-80-year-old-man-in-leicestershire-park?CMP=share_btn_url

OP posts:
TulipBlooms · 09/04/2025 08:03

Smallmercies · 09/04/2025 07:59

We know their ethnicity because we know who they are - their ethnicity was never a feature of the case. You're being disingenuous.

“We” don’t know who they are. How do you know who they are? Are you just restating that you think they are white or do you actually know who they are?

Smallmercies · 09/04/2025 08:03

TulipBlooms · 09/04/2025 08:03

“We” don’t know who they are. How do you know who they are? Are you just restating that you think they are white or do you actually know who they are?

Edited

I was replying to your post about the killers of James Bulger.

MusedeBordeaux · 09/04/2025 08:04

CurlewKate · 09/04/2025 07:44

Such a depressing thread. And not because of the verdict.

Because of the crime you mean. Agree entirely, utter savagery.

Poor poor man.

CurlewKate · 09/04/2025 08:06

MusedeBordeaux · 09/04/2025 08:04

Because of the crime you mean. Agree entirely, utter savagery.

Poor poor man.

That is, obviously, taken as read.

Serpentstooth · 09/04/2025 08:07

It's appalling and distressing, poor man and poor family. Awful. It's manslaughter because, presumably - I haven't read the full story, too sickening - there was no proven intent to deprive the poor man of his life. Just the vicious attack on a frail vulnerable old man unable to resist these sociopathic children who were enjoying themselves. Vile.

mikado1 · 09/04/2025 08:14

Smallmercies · 09/04/2025 08:03

I was replying to your post about the killers of James Bulger.

Which was very clear.

Sameoldsameoldsame · 09/04/2025 08:14

GeorgianaM · 08/04/2025 15:34

A boy who slapped an 80-year-old man with a slider shoe as he cowered on the ground before punching and kicking him is facing jail after being convicted of manslaughter.
The teenager was just 14 when he donned a balaclava and viciously attacked retired factory owner Bhim Kohli as he walked his dog Rocky in a park next to his home in September last year.
The baby-faced teen was acquitted of murder by a jury at Leicester Crown Court on Tuesday but found guilty of the lesser charge following a six-week trial.
A girl, who was just 12 at the time, filmed part of the attack and could be heard laughing in the video as the pensioner cowered on his knees was also found guilty of manslaughter after prosecutors said she 'encouraged the violence'.
The pair cannot be named because of their age.
The boy, now 15 showed no emotion while the girl, 13 cried in the dock as the verdicts were handed down after the jury deliberated for more than six hours.
Family members sobbed, with one walking out of the court in tears. The teenagers will be sentenced next month when a judge will consider lifting their anonymity.
Judge Mr Justice Turner granted the girl bail but said it was 'no indication' of what would be decided when she is sentenced. The boy was remanded in custody.
In an emotional statement delivered on the court steps Mr Kohli's daughter Susan paid tribute to her 'amazing' father who was 'brutally and cruelly' taken away.

Describing the day of the attack she told how they were alerted to what had happened and went to the park to help.
'He was screaming out; he was in that much pain - it was horrendous, we have never seen him like that before,' she said. 'We all thought he would go to hospital to be treated and he would then be fine. We never imagined he wouldn't return home.'
She said listening to trial and being shown the videos of their father being attacked would never leave them.
'We feel anger and disgust towards the teenagers who took dad away from us,' she said.
'They humiliated an 80-year-old man, assaulted him, filmed it and laughed at him.
'The boy, who told witnesses he had anger problems and couldn't stop, used violence so severe that he broke three of dad's ribs and neck which caused trauma to his spinal column.
'Videos of the incident were filmed and shockingly found on the girl's phone. Dad did not deserve this, and we wouldn't wish this pain on anyone else.
'One of the videos showed dad on his knees being hit over the head with the boy's slider.

'A loud horrible slapping sound is heard when the boy struck dad. Hearing the girl laugh at this assault on dad is utterly disgusting. This sound plays over and over in our heads.
'Also captured on video is dad's attempt to call for help as he shouted out for his grandson. We didn't hear his call for help and this upsets us deeply. We can't put into words the pain we feel every day, and this has magnified during the trial.'
She said he was an 'amazing' man who loved life and who never took himself seriously, and despite his age and how frail he looked, was healthy and very active. He had three allotment plots where he grew lots of fruit and vegetables which he would share them with the family, friends and neighbours.
She added: 'He was the person who knitted our family together and we miss him every second of every day.
'Our house feels so empty without him and will never be the same. The area we have loved for so many years and called 'home' feels so different now and we will never feel safe.
'Having happened only a minute's walk of where we live is something we cannot get away from and it is a constant reminder. Every time my mum opens the front door she thinks about what happened to her husband.'
Detective Chief Inspector Mark Sinski, from the East Midlands Special Operations Unit Murder Investigation Team, said: 'Bhim Kohli was simply doing what he did every day, walking his dog on the park that was just yards from his own front door.
'But instead of being able to enjoy an evening stroll with Rocky on a warm summer's day, he was confronted by a teenage boy, who was encouraged by a teenage girl, attacked him and left him in agony on the floor.'
Kelly Matthews from the Crown Prosecution Service said the incident shocked the community of Leicester and beyond.
She said: 'We have shown in this trial that these young defendants were responsible for Mr Kohli's death - in an unprovoked attack on an innocent man. They filmed the incident and laughed and bragged about it afterwards.'

Mr Kohli was discovered lying in agony in Leicester's Franklin Park- just yards from his home - by neighbours and his son and daughter.
He had been racially abused and struck around the face with the plastic sandal as he cowered on his knees before being kicked and punched.
He was taken to hospital where he died the next day. A post-mortem examination revealed the cause of Mr Kohli's death to be a neck injury 'causing trauma to the spinal cord'. He also suffered broken ribs.
Prosecutor Harpreet Sandhu KC told jurors the boy had used 'gratuitous' and 'intense' violence before leaving his victim for dead.
He said he had no reason to hit the 'defenceless' elderly man who, because he was on the ground, was in a vulnerable position but his 'instinct' was to use violence.
Mr Sandhu said the girl knew what would happen when she pointed the elderly man out to the boy. 'She knew there would be violence and she had a desire to capture it - and capturing it provided encouragement for the violence to be meted out,' he said.
The trial heard the boy carried out the racist attack after his girlfriend broke up with him and he needed 'anger releasing'.
He went on the run and later tried to claim Mr Kohli had pulled a knife in an attempt to justify the violence. But Mr Kohli's family said he never carried a knife, and no knife was found at the scene.
The girl had a picture of Mr Kohli on her phone, taken a week before the attack, and pointed him out to the boy when they saw him in the park following previous run ins with him.
The photograph of Mr Kohli was at around the same time of day as he was attacked, with prosecutors accusing her of keeping the image on her phone so she could 'target him'.
The court heard the girl regularly 'recorded violence' on her mobile phone, and had dozens of other recordings showing children fighting each other and another where an unidentified victim was called a 'P' and had something thrown over him.
The three video clips of the attack on Mr Kohli were recovered from the girl's mobile phone in a section of Snapchat called 'my eyes only' which requires a code for access, which the prosecution said was an attempt to hide the evidence.
She was accused of 'egging' on the boy, and remained with him during the attack to 'support' him when other teenagers they were with ran away.
In a police interview she was asked if the video showing Mr Kohli being slapped with the shoe had given her enjoyment. She replied: 'Not really but it was a bit funny at the time'.
The girl, who was dressed in black trousers, white shirt and black jumper with her hair tied up and was supported by her mother in court, showed no emotion as she was found guilty.
The boy, who looked at his mother in the public gallery as the verdicts were delivered, wore a pale blue tracksuit.
He had admitted to having 'anger issues' but claimed he slapped Mr Kohli in the face with his slider out of 'instinct' after they tussled over the shoe and 'ran at him' before pushing him as he believed the elderly man was going to hit his friend.
But the court heard the boy sent messages admitting to the attack including one which read: 'I didn't mean to batter him.'
In reply to a message saying an 80-year-old had been 'smacked up' in the park, the boy wrote: 'I did that. ...I didn't mean to batter him. It was one hit and then my anger turned in.'
Before the attack on Mr Kohli, the boy had taken a balaclava out of his Gucci bag and put it on 'in preparation for violence'. Asked why he had a balaclava or 'bally' as he called it, he replied simply, 'fashion'.
The court heard that after the attack he searched for news stories about it and then, ten seconds later, for Adele tickets. When asked by one friend in a message if he was 'sing it' - slang for worrying about something - he replied with two laughing emojis and wrote 'Nah, chilling bro'.
At 8.21pm on September 2, about 25 minutes before Kohli died, he sent a laughing emoji to friends and said: 'Feds know it is me. Got my name and picture.'
The court was told that after his arrest, he wrote a letter to a support worker, in which he said he regretted what he had done. In it he wrote: 'My ex broke up with me and I was struggling with that so I kind of just needed anger etc releasing'.
He went on to say: 'I'm so nervous well scared and worried. I accept I did it and I am doing time. I am just scared about how long I have to do.'
When told the letter would have to be disclosed he replied: 'That's my manslaughter plea gone'.
Due to prior police contact with Mr Kohli, the Leicestershire police made a mandatory referral to the Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC). The IOPC decided this investigation should be carried out locally by the force. The investigation report has been submitted to the IOPC for them to review.
...........

If I had my way, a rope would be involved for both of them, but the chances are they will serve a paltry amount of time in a youth detention centre and be free to walk the streets again.

It's appalling. Some children are mot raised but dragged up and spend time watching alsorts online including graphic violence. The need to film this for the girl. The boy appears to have no control over his violence. We will hear pre sentencing excuses next, but they deserve punishment due to the horrific nature of their crime.

Poor man and his family. Awful for them. Sentencing should send z message to others who would attack others and film it all.

TulipBlooms · 09/04/2025 08:22

mikado1 · 09/04/2025 08:14

Which was very clear.

Yes, I misunderstood

Morph22010 · 09/04/2025 08:25

TulipBlooms · 09/04/2025 07:57

Well yes but we also know the ethnicity of James Bulger’s murderers so I don’t think one example really makes your case.

We didn’t know their identities though until after they had been convicted and sentenced. These children’s names may well be released after sentencing too as happened with Brianna ghey killers. With Southport the nationality was leaked well before he conviction

happyhermione · 09/04/2025 08:46

Either way, I’m glad she was thick enough to film it and incriminate them both. I truly hope they get the most severe sentence imaginable

PassingStranger · 09/04/2025 10:47

It's a pity the dog didn't bite him. I thought dogs protected owners to.be honest.
You would have thought him having a dog would have made these jobs think twice.

Hairyesterdaygonetoday · 09/04/2025 10:55

It’s ludicrous that you have to ‘prove intention to kill’ for a murder conviction. No one is a mind-reader. No one can know what a person’s intention is.

What’s certain is that even the stupidest teenager, if they’re able to write their name and tie their own shoelaces, must know that a violent assault on a frail old man could kill him.

QuirkInTheMatrix · 09/04/2025 12:46

Hairyesterdaygonetoday · 09/04/2025 10:55

It’s ludicrous that you have to ‘prove intention to kill’ for a murder conviction. No one is a mind-reader. No one can know what a person’s intention is.

What’s certain is that even the stupidest teenager, if they’re able to write their name and tie their own shoelaces, must know that a violent assault on a frail old man could kill him.

I think that your first bit is incorrect and your second bit is incorrect. 😀

I may be wrong but I think they apply a "could it reasonably be forseen" type test. So if a person sticks a knife in someones chest they can say they didn't mean to kill them but if the court decides they intended to knife them in the chest and the average person could reasonably be expected to foresee that death is a likely consequence then it's murder.

If they pushed someone and that person hits their head and dies then the defence could argue that most people wouldn't expect death to be a consequence so they are more likely to be acquitted of murder. But may still f ace a manslaughter charge.

The grey areas are the ones in-between. How many times can you kick someone in the head before it can be argued you should have foreseen death as a probably/possible consequence.

gattocattivo · 09/04/2025 13:17

I think the male was initially charged with murder but it was dropped and then a charge of manslaughter was brought. So it would be interesting to know the process behind this. I presume it was thought a murder charge wouldn’t stick. As others say, In what world does beating someone around the head and then kicking them, breaking ribs and causing spinal injuries, not suggest that you’re likely to cause at the very least serious harm, if not death to a frail 80 year old?

steff13 · 09/04/2025 17:55

gattocattivo · 09/04/2025 13:17

I think the male was initially charged with murder but it was dropped and then a charge of manslaughter was brought. So it would be interesting to know the process behind this. I presume it was thought a murder charge wouldn’t stick. As others say, In what world does beating someone around the head and then kicking them, breaking ribs and causing spinal injuries, not suggest that you’re likely to cause at the very least serious harm, if not death to a frail 80 year old?

The article said that the jury found him not guilty of murder. So the murder charge was brought, the jury just didn't think that it met the standard for whatever reason.

gattocattivo · 09/04/2025 21:38

ah ok. It would be interesting to know the reasoning behind this although I’m sure we’ll never find out. It seems crazy to believe that 14 year old wouldn’t be aware that kicking and beating up an 80 year old wouldn’t result in at least serious harm.

JHound · 10/04/2025 01:46

Ilikewinter · 08/04/2025 15:57

It wouldn't have taken me 6 hours to find the shits guilty. Wonder which jury members continued to deliberate for that amount of time. Name both of them, and I hope the judge throws the book at the pair of them.

The jury had access to the full evidence of the case. You do not.

OonaStubbs · 10/04/2025 02:43

The whole justice system in this country is broken and unfit for purpose. What is the point of it if scrotes like this are free to kill and then walk free in a few years? To whose benefit is that? Let me guess, people who work within the justice system as it creates more work for them. It is not in the interest of the justice system to reduce crime as it would put them out of a job

TheGrimSmile · 11/04/2025 08:57

OonaStubbs · 10/04/2025 02:43

The whole justice system in this country is broken and unfit for purpose. What is the point of it if scrotes like this are free to kill and then walk free in a few years? To whose benefit is that? Let me guess, people who work within the justice system as it creates more work for them. It is not in the interest of the justice system to reduce crime as it would put them out of a job

Nonsense. The whole problem is extremely complex and cannot be solved by simply "locking 'em up and throwing away the key". We have to look at the root causes in society that cause antisocial behaviour in children - because they are still children. Poverty, inequality, social media, lack of investment in public services - all massive political and social issues that are not easily or quickly fixed. The entire system does need overhauling; fundamentally we need a redistribution of wealth - but nobody wealthy and powerful is prepared to do that. So until then we will just keep trying ineffective "sticking plaster" strategies to make things better.

gattocattivo · 11/04/2025 09:33

I completely agree that public services need huge investment but to describe this as ‘antisocial behaviour in children’ is disgraceful minimisation. It was a vicious, brutal attack. Children know that kicking and hitting someone repeatedly is causing them serious harm and suffering at the very least.

yes, invest in public services. Get proper controls and restrictions in place on social media. Make social media platforms accountable. Make parents accountable for how they are influencing their children. (All easier said then done I know.)

but alongside this - name these two individuals whose actions caused someone to die a horrible, painful death. And punish them severely. Because these are not actions simply caused by a neglectful upbringing or poverty. That’s insulting to the millions of people who also experience those things but don’t kill a person.

OonaStubbs · 11/04/2025 19:09

Locking them up and throwing away the key would prevent these individuals from killing again. We are far too tolerant of criminals and crime in this country. And it's not because the general public wants it to be that way, it's because the people working within the justice system want it that way.

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