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I don't understand how this is manslaughter and not murder

221 replies

lifeonmars100 · 08/04/2025 15:15

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/apr/08/two-teenagers-found-guilty- by of-manslaughter-of-80-year-old-man-in-leicestershire-park?CMP=sharebtnurl

I am sure I am not alone in being disturbed and upset by this awful case. I can't stop thinking about this poor man, setting off for a stroll with his dog and then to be the victim of a vicious unprovoked attack of such severity that he died as a result of it. I can't understand how the boy was found guilty of manslaughter and not murder. I appreciate that a murder conviction hinges on "intent" i.e what was in the defendant's mind when they committed the offence and of course I was not in court to hear all the evidence but as a layperson I just don't get it. Maybe things will be clearer when they are sentenced. I feel so sorry for the family, the details are so awful and will surely haunt them forever. The fact that the girl filmed the attack is truly sickening but seems par for the course these days. Mr Kohli must have been terrified and in so much pain, what a terrible end to his life

Two teenagers found guilty of manslaughter of 80-year-old man in Leicestershire park

Bhim Kohli, who was walking his dog, was racially abused, kicked and punched in ‘gratuitous’ attack

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/apr/08/two-teenagers-found-guilty-of-manslaughter-of-80-year-old-man-in-leicestershire-park?CMP=share_btn_url

OP posts:
Veronay · 08/04/2025 17:04

The attack was sickening but as with any court case the details are intricate. For example at one pint it was reported that the man was taunting the children with 'slap motions' and that could be taken by a court as provocation and mitigation. This is just an example though, unless you're privy to the details of the case you won't understand why the conviction was made and on what grounds.

Naunet · 08/04/2025 17:06

If someone has a dog who bites a person, they can find themselves facing charges, it's about time BOTH parents faced charges for raising violent, feral scum.

steff13 · 08/04/2025 17:08

QuirkInTheMatrix · 08/04/2025 16:59

Not been convicted yet, court case imminent.

The article in the OP says they were both convicted of manslaughter. It says the boy was charged with murder but found not guilty.

IleftmybaginNewportPagnell · 08/04/2025 17:09

The girl is out on bail?

Pigsears · 08/04/2025 17:10

I don't think the children should have their names released.

Those who are local will know who they are- the victims family, their family, etc etc I don't think it benefits the victims family for the whole country to know their names. And I can't see how it benefits anyone. They are already being sentenced- and that will be their punishment.

Icanthinkformyselfthanks · 08/04/2025 17:11

caringcarer · 08/04/2025 15:24

Courts in the UK are always bending over backwards to let offenders off, give them shortest sentences possible and then if they go to jail sentences are reduced to half for so called good behaviour.

Unless they tweet and then remove some unpleasant things, then the book is thrown at them.

Notonyourjelly · 08/04/2025 17:14

JenniferBooth · 08/04/2025 15:32

You would never see a comment like "parents are not entitled to more respect just because they have children" on a thread where a parent of young children has been the victim of manslaughter.

Edited

Agree, what a despicable comment and totally uncalled for. This was an innocent, defenceless elderly man who of course deserved respect.

Smallmercies · 08/04/2025 17:15

caringcarer · 08/04/2025 16:28

Except they get out earlier for good behaviour.

The UK sends more people to prison, for longer, than most civilised countries.

Whatflavourjellybabyisnice · 08/04/2025 17:16

Those kids are disgusting!!
What are their parents brining them up to be?

Smallmercies · 08/04/2025 17:16

Icanthinkformyselfthanks · 08/04/2025 17:11

Unless they tweet and then remove some unpleasant things, then the book is thrown at them.

Tweets inciting violence - you missed that bit out. She wanted asylum hotels burnt down.

FOJN · 08/04/2025 17:18

Smallmercies · 08/04/2025 16:17

Manslaughter carries a maximum sentence of life in prison.

Minors can receive an indeterminate sentence but not a life sentence.

QuirkInTheMatrix · 08/04/2025 17:18

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 08/04/2025 17:01

It's in the OP that they've been convicted.

I was quoting another post which asked me a question about a different case I’d previously mentioned

lljkk · 08/04/2025 17:19

Does anyone have informed view of the likely sentences?
My guess is > 30 years for the lad, and 15ish for the gal.

They ruined their own lives, basically.

QuirkInTheMatrix · 08/04/2025 17:19

steff13 · 08/04/2025 17:08

The article in the OP says they were both convicted of manslaughter. It says the boy was charged with murder but found not guilty.

I’d quoted another poster asking me about a different case regarding the manslaughter vs murder threshold.

FOJN · 08/04/2025 17:20

IleftmybaginNewportPagnell · 08/04/2025 17:09

The girl is out on bail?

I know, that doesn't suggest she will receive a custodial sentence regardless of what the judge said.

QuirkInTheMatrix · 08/04/2025 17:21

lljkk · 08/04/2025 17:19

Does anyone have informed view of the likely sentences?
My guess is > 30 years for the lad, and 15ish for the gal.

They ruined their own lives, basically.

I’d be amazed if it was that high but may well be wrong. I’m thinking more like 12 for him and 5-6 for her but haven’t looked at actual sentencing guidelines. I think there will be leniency because of their age and an expectation of rehabilitation.

FishersGate · 08/04/2025 17:24

Still quite astounded the girl is on unconditional bail to be honest. An adult wouldn't receive it i am sure

AmusedBouched · 08/04/2025 17:24

lljkk · 08/04/2025 17:19

Does anyone have informed view of the likely sentences?
My guess is > 30 years for the lad, and 15ish for the gal.

They ruined their own lives, basically.

I am sure I read that they will be out before they turn 18.

Though anyone can correct me if I’m wrong as I can’t find it now.

No provocation from Mr Kohli was found.

The whole thing is just so sad and I can’t bear thinking how they killed this defenceless vulnerable man.

Tiswa · 08/04/2025 17:24

QuirkInTheMatrix · 08/04/2025 16:59

Not been convicted yet, court case imminent.

I would be surprised - I am not sure that I would convict murder if I was a jury member

and intent beyond all reasonable doubt is key isn’t it particularly to a jury. Manslaughter yes.

I think perhaps perception is key - sentencing for manslaughter can also be a life sentence (won’t here even murder would have been 12 years, although given his anger I suspect he may end up having years added once in the system) so can be just as powerful a conviction as murder but the burden of proof of intent is less.

Bepo77 · 08/04/2025 17:25

GeorgianaM · 08/04/2025 15:34

A boy who slapped an 80-year-old man with a slider shoe as he cowered on the ground before punching and kicking him is facing jail after being convicted of manslaughter.
The teenager was just 14 when he donned a balaclava and viciously attacked retired factory owner Bhim Kohli as he walked his dog Rocky in a park next to his home in September last year.
The baby-faced teen was acquitted of murder by a jury at Leicester Crown Court on Tuesday but found guilty of the lesser charge following a six-week trial.
A girl, who was just 12 at the time, filmed part of the attack and could be heard laughing in the video as the pensioner cowered on his knees was also found guilty of manslaughter after prosecutors said she 'encouraged the violence'.
The pair cannot be named because of their age.
The boy, now 15 showed no emotion while the girl, 13 cried in the dock as the verdicts were handed down after the jury deliberated for more than six hours.
Family members sobbed, with one walking out of the court in tears. The teenagers will be sentenced next month when a judge will consider lifting their anonymity.
Judge Mr Justice Turner granted the girl bail but said it was 'no indication' of what would be decided when she is sentenced. The boy was remanded in custody.
In an emotional statement delivered on the court steps Mr Kohli's daughter Susan paid tribute to her 'amazing' father who was 'brutally and cruelly' taken away.

Describing the day of the attack she told how they were alerted to what had happened and went to the park to help.
'He was screaming out; he was in that much pain - it was horrendous, we have never seen him like that before,' she said. 'We all thought he would go to hospital to be treated and he would then be fine. We never imagined he wouldn't return home.'
She said listening to trial and being shown the videos of their father being attacked would never leave them.
'We feel anger and disgust towards the teenagers who took dad away from us,' she said.
'They humiliated an 80-year-old man, assaulted him, filmed it and laughed at him.
'The boy, who told witnesses he had anger problems and couldn't stop, used violence so severe that he broke three of dad's ribs and neck which caused trauma to his spinal column.
'Videos of the incident were filmed and shockingly found on the girl's phone. Dad did not deserve this, and we wouldn't wish this pain on anyone else.
'One of the videos showed dad on his knees being hit over the head with the boy's slider.

'A loud horrible slapping sound is heard when the boy struck dad. Hearing the girl laugh at this assault on dad is utterly disgusting. This sound plays over and over in our heads.
'Also captured on video is dad's attempt to call for help as he shouted out for his grandson. We didn't hear his call for help and this upsets us deeply. We can't put into words the pain we feel every day, and this has magnified during the trial.'
She said he was an 'amazing' man who loved life and who never took himself seriously, and despite his age and how frail he looked, was healthy and very active. He had three allotment plots where he grew lots of fruit and vegetables which he would share them with the family, friends and neighbours.
She added: 'He was the person who knitted our family together and we miss him every second of every day.
'Our house feels so empty without him and will never be the same. The area we have loved for so many years and called 'home' feels so different now and we will never feel safe.
'Having happened only a minute's walk of where we live is something we cannot get away from and it is a constant reminder. Every time my mum opens the front door she thinks about what happened to her husband.'
Detective Chief Inspector Mark Sinski, from the East Midlands Special Operations Unit Murder Investigation Team, said: 'Bhim Kohli was simply doing what he did every day, walking his dog on the park that was just yards from his own front door.
'But instead of being able to enjoy an evening stroll with Rocky on a warm summer's day, he was confronted by a teenage boy, who was encouraged by a teenage girl, attacked him and left him in agony on the floor.'
Kelly Matthews from the Crown Prosecution Service said the incident shocked the community of Leicester and beyond.
She said: 'We have shown in this trial that these young defendants were responsible for Mr Kohli's death - in an unprovoked attack on an innocent man. They filmed the incident and laughed and bragged about it afterwards.'

Mr Kohli was discovered lying in agony in Leicester's Franklin Park- just yards from his home - by neighbours and his son and daughter.
He had been racially abused and struck around the face with the plastic sandal as he cowered on his knees before being kicked and punched.
He was taken to hospital where he died the next day. A post-mortem examination revealed the cause of Mr Kohli's death to be a neck injury 'causing trauma to the spinal cord'. He also suffered broken ribs.
Prosecutor Harpreet Sandhu KC told jurors the boy had used 'gratuitous' and 'intense' violence before leaving his victim for dead.
He said he had no reason to hit the 'defenceless' elderly man who, because he was on the ground, was in a vulnerable position but his 'instinct' was to use violence.
Mr Sandhu said the girl knew what would happen when she pointed the elderly man out to the boy. 'She knew there would be violence and she had a desire to capture it - and capturing it provided encouragement for the violence to be meted out,' he said.
The trial heard the boy carried out the racist attack after his girlfriend broke up with him and he needed 'anger releasing'.
He went on the run and later tried to claim Mr Kohli had pulled a knife in an attempt to justify the violence. But Mr Kohli's family said he never carried a knife, and no knife was found at the scene.
The girl had a picture of Mr Kohli on her phone, taken a week before the attack, and pointed him out to the boy when they saw him in the park following previous run ins with him.
The photograph of Mr Kohli was at around the same time of day as he was attacked, with prosecutors accusing her of keeping the image on her phone so she could 'target him'.
The court heard the girl regularly 'recorded violence' on her mobile phone, and had dozens of other recordings showing children fighting each other and another where an unidentified victim was called a 'P' and had something thrown over him.
The three video clips of the attack on Mr Kohli were recovered from the girl's mobile phone in a section of Snapchat called 'my eyes only' which requires a code for access, which the prosecution said was an attempt to hide the evidence.
She was accused of 'egging' on the boy, and remained with him during the attack to 'support' him when other teenagers they were with ran away.
In a police interview she was asked if the video showing Mr Kohli being slapped with the shoe had given her enjoyment. She replied: 'Not really but it was a bit funny at the time'.
The girl, who was dressed in black trousers, white shirt and black jumper with her hair tied up and was supported by her mother in court, showed no emotion as she was found guilty.
The boy, who looked at his mother in the public gallery as the verdicts were delivered, wore a pale blue tracksuit.
He had admitted to having 'anger issues' but claimed he slapped Mr Kohli in the face with his slider out of 'instinct' after they tussled over the shoe and 'ran at him' before pushing him as he believed the elderly man was going to hit his friend.
But the court heard the boy sent messages admitting to the attack including one which read: 'I didn't mean to batter him.'
In reply to a message saying an 80-year-old had been 'smacked up' in the park, the boy wrote: 'I did that. ...I didn't mean to batter him. It was one hit and then my anger turned in.'
Before the attack on Mr Kohli, the boy had taken a balaclava out of his Gucci bag and put it on 'in preparation for violence'. Asked why he had a balaclava or 'bally' as he called it, he replied simply, 'fashion'.
The court heard that after the attack he searched for news stories about it and then, ten seconds later, for Adele tickets. When asked by one friend in a message if he was 'sing it' - slang for worrying about something - he replied with two laughing emojis and wrote 'Nah, chilling bro'.
At 8.21pm on September 2, about 25 minutes before Kohli died, he sent a laughing emoji to friends and said: 'Feds know it is me. Got my name and picture.'
The court was told that after his arrest, he wrote a letter to a support worker, in which he said he regretted what he had done. In it he wrote: 'My ex broke up with me and I was struggling with that so I kind of just needed anger etc releasing'.
He went on to say: 'I'm so nervous well scared and worried. I accept I did it and I am doing time. I am just scared about how long I have to do.'
When told the letter would have to be disclosed he replied: 'That's my manslaughter plea gone'.
Due to prior police contact with Mr Kohli, the Leicestershire police made a mandatory referral to the Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC). The IOPC decided this investigation should be carried out locally by the force. The investigation report has been submitted to the IOPC for them to review.
...........

If I had my way, a rope would be involved for both of them, but the chances are they will serve a paltry amount of time in a youth detention centre and be free to walk the streets again.

Why did you post the whole thing? Don’t you think people would have clicked the link if they’d wanted to dive into every single injury?

Tiswa · 08/04/2025 17:25

AmusedBouched · 08/04/2025 17:24

I am sure I read that they will be out before they turn 18.

Though anyone can correct me if I’m wrong as I can’t find it now.

No provocation from Mr Kohli was found.

The whole thing is just so sad and I can’t bear thinking how they killed this defenceless vulnerable man.

Sentencing is 20th May so nothing yet

MuffinsOrCake · 08/04/2025 17:26

The parents and the broken school system, where the teachers do not tackle bullying , just smirk at you when you try to fix the issues your child is having

PassingStranger · 08/04/2025 17:26

GeorgianaM · 08/04/2025 15:34

A boy who slapped an 80-year-old man with a slider shoe as he cowered on the ground before punching and kicking him is facing jail after being convicted of manslaughter.
The teenager was just 14 when he donned a balaclava and viciously attacked retired factory owner Bhim Kohli as he walked his dog Rocky in a park next to his home in September last year.
The baby-faced teen was acquitted of murder by a jury at Leicester Crown Court on Tuesday but found guilty of the lesser charge following a six-week trial.
A girl, who was just 12 at the time, filmed part of the attack and could be heard laughing in the video as the pensioner cowered on his knees was also found guilty of manslaughter after prosecutors said she 'encouraged the violence'.
The pair cannot be named because of their age.
The boy, now 15 showed no emotion while the girl, 13 cried in the dock as the verdicts were handed down after the jury deliberated for more than six hours.
Family members sobbed, with one walking out of the court in tears. The teenagers will be sentenced next month when a judge will consider lifting their anonymity.
Judge Mr Justice Turner granted the girl bail but said it was 'no indication' of what would be decided when she is sentenced. The boy was remanded in custody.
In an emotional statement delivered on the court steps Mr Kohli's daughter Susan paid tribute to her 'amazing' father who was 'brutally and cruelly' taken away.

Describing the day of the attack she told how they were alerted to what had happened and went to the park to help.
'He was screaming out; he was in that much pain - it was horrendous, we have never seen him like that before,' she said. 'We all thought he would go to hospital to be treated and he would then be fine. We never imagined he wouldn't return home.'
She said listening to trial and being shown the videos of their father being attacked would never leave them.
'We feel anger and disgust towards the teenagers who took dad away from us,' she said.
'They humiliated an 80-year-old man, assaulted him, filmed it and laughed at him.
'The boy, who told witnesses he had anger problems and couldn't stop, used violence so severe that he broke three of dad's ribs and neck which caused trauma to his spinal column.
'Videos of the incident were filmed and shockingly found on the girl's phone. Dad did not deserve this, and we wouldn't wish this pain on anyone else.
'One of the videos showed dad on his knees being hit over the head with the boy's slider.

'A loud horrible slapping sound is heard when the boy struck dad. Hearing the girl laugh at this assault on dad is utterly disgusting. This sound plays over and over in our heads.
'Also captured on video is dad's attempt to call for help as he shouted out for his grandson. We didn't hear his call for help and this upsets us deeply. We can't put into words the pain we feel every day, and this has magnified during the trial.'
She said he was an 'amazing' man who loved life and who never took himself seriously, and despite his age and how frail he looked, was healthy and very active. He had three allotment plots where he grew lots of fruit and vegetables which he would share them with the family, friends and neighbours.
She added: 'He was the person who knitted our family together and we miss him every second of every day.
'Our house feels so empty without him and will never be the same. The area we have loved for so many years and called 'home' feels so different now and we will never feel safe.
'Having happened only a minute's walk of where we live is something we cannot get away from and it is a constant reminder. Every time my mum opens the front door she thinks about what happened to her husband.'
Detective Chief Inspector Mark Sinski, from the East Midlands Special Operations Unit Murder Investigation Team, said: 'Bhim Kohli was simply doing what he did every day, walking his dog on the park that was just yards from his own front door.
'But instead of being able to enjoy an evening stroll with Rocky on a warm summer's day, he was confronted by a teenage boy, who was encouraged by a teenage girl, attacked him and left him in agony on the floor.'
Kelly Matthews from the Crown Prosecution Service said the incident shocked the community of Leicester and beyond.
She said: 'We have shown in this trial that these young defendants were responsible for Mr Kohli's death - in an unprovoked attack on an innocent man. They filmed the incident and laughed and bragged about it afterwards.'

Mr Kohli was discovered lying in agony in Leicester's Franklin Park- just yards from his home - by neighbours and his son and daughter.
He had been racially abused and struck around the face with the plastic sandal as he cowered on his knees before being kicked and punched.
He was taken to hospital where he died the next day. A post-mortem examination revealed the cause of Mr Kohli's death to be a neck injury 'causing trauma to the spinal cord'. He also suffered broken ribs.
Prosecutor Harpreet Sandhu KC told jurors the boy had used 'gratuitous' and 'intense' violence before leaving his victim for dead.
He said he had no reason to hit the 'defenceless' elderly man who, because he was on the ground, was in a vulnerable position but his 'instinct' was to use violence.
Mr Sandhu said the girl knew what would happen when she pointed the elderly man out to the boy. 'She knew there would be violence and she had a desire to capture it - and capturing it provided encouragement for the violence to be meted out,' he said.
The trial heard the boy carried out the racist attack after his girlfriend broke up with him and he needed 'anger releasing'.
He went on the run and later tried to claim Mr Kohli had pulled a knife in an attempt to justify the violence. But Mr Kohli's family said he never carried a knife, and no knife was found at the scene.
The girl had a picture of Mr Kohli on her phone, taken a week before the attack, and pointed him out to the boy when they saw him in the park following previous run ins with him.
The photograph of Mr Kohli was at around the same time of day as he was attacked, with prosecutors accusing her of keeping the image on her phone so she could 'target him'.
The court heard the girl regularly 'recorded violence' on her mobile phone, and had dozens of other recordings showing children fighting each other and another where an unidentified victim was called a 'P' and had something thrown over him.
The three video clips of the attack on Mr Kohli were recovered from the girl's mobile phone in a section of Snapchat called 'my eyes only' which requires a code for access, which the prosecution said was an attempt to hide the evidence.
She was accused of 'egging' on the boy, and remained with him during the attack to 'support' him when other teenagers they were with ran away.
In a police interview she was asked if the video showing Mr Kohli being slapped with the shoe had given her enjoyment. She replied: 'Not really but it was a bit funny at the time'.
The girl, who was dressed in black trousers, white shirt and black jumper with her hair tied up and was supported by her mother in court, showed no emotion as she was found guilty.
The boy, who looked at his mother in the public gallery as the verdicts were delivered, wore a pale blue tracksuit.
He had admitted to having 'anger issues' but claimed he slapped Mr Kohli in the face with his slider out of 'instinct' after they tussled over the shoe and 'ran at him' before pushing him as he believed the elderly man was going to hit his friend.
But the court heard the boy sent messages admitting to the attack including one which read: 'I didn't mean to batter him.'
In reply to a message saying an 80-year-old had been 'smacked up' in the park, the boy wrote: 'I did that. ...I didn't mean to batter him. It was one hit and then my anger turned in.'
Before the attack on Mr Kohli, the boy had taken a balaclava out of his Gucci bag and put it on 'in preparation for violence'. Asked why he had a balaclava or 'bally' as he called it, he replied simply, 'fashion'.
The court heard that after the attack he searched for news stories about it and then, ten seconds later, for Adele tickets. When asked by one friend in a message if he was 'sing it' - slang for worrying about something - he replied with two laughing emojis and wrote 'Nah, chilling bro'.
At 8.21pm on September 2, about 25 minutes before Kohli died, he sent a laughing emoji to friends and said: 'Feds know it is me. Got my name and picture.'
The court was told that after his arrest, he wrote a letter to a support worker, in which he said he regretted what he had done. In it he wrote: 'My ex broke up with me and I was struggling with that so I kind of just needed anger etc releasing'.
He went on to say: 'I'm so nervous well scared and worried. I accept I did it and I am doing time. I am just scared about how long I have to do.'
When told the letter would have to be disclosed he replied: 'That's my manslaughter plea gone'.
Due to prior police contact with Mr Kohli, the Leicestershire police made a mandatory referral to the Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC). The IOPC decided this investigation should be carried out locally by the force. The investigation report has been submitted to the IOPC for them to review.
...........

If I had my way, a rope would be involved for both of them, but the chances are they will serve a paltry amount of time in a youth detention centre and be free to walk the streets again.

Yes we are far too soft and it just keeps happening.
Time we named and shamed the parents too

No doubt the parents were paying for the phone that filmed the attack.

I wonder what these two creatures would think if someone did that to their grandparent.
What would they say?

I should hate to work in youth custody today it must be full of vile youth with no respect for anybody.
God I'd be so embarrassed if I was a parent of one of these youth going to visit them
I would deffo think I'd failed.

Pigsears · 08/04/2025 17:31

FishersGate · 08/04/2025 17:24

Still quite astounded the girl is on unconditional bail to be honest. An adult wouldn't receive it i am sure

She is 13.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 08/04/2025 17:32

QuirkInTheMatrix · 08/04/2025 17:18

I was quoting another post which asked me a question about a different case I’d previously mentioned

Apologies, I didn't spot that.