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I don't understand how this is manslaughter and not murder

221 replies

lifeonmars100 · 08/04/2025 15:15

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/apr/08/two-teenagers-found-guilty- by of-manslaughter-of-80-year-old-man-in-leicestershire-park?CMP=sharebtnurl

I am sure I am not alone in being disturbed and upset by this awful case. I can't stop thinking about this poor man, setting off for a stroll with his dog and then to be the victim of a vicious unprovoked attack of such severity that he died as a result of it. I can't understand how the boy was found guilty of manslaughter and not murder. I appreciate that a murder conviction hinges on "intent" i.e what was in the defendant's mind when they committed the offence and of course I was not in court to hear all the evidence but as a layperson I just don't get it. Maybe things will be clearer when they are sentenced. I feel so sorry for the family, the details are so awful and will surely haunt them forever. The fact that the girl filmed the attack is truly sickening but seems par for the course these days. Mr Kohli must have been terrified and in so much pain, what a terrible end to his life

Two teenagers found guilty of manslaughter of 80-year-old man in Leicestershire park

Bhim Kohli, who was walking his dog, was racially abused, kicked and punched in ‘gratuitous’ attack

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/apr/08/two-teenagers-found-guilty-of-manslaughter-of-80-year-old-man-in-leicestershire-park?CMP=share_btn_url

OP posts:
PassingStranger · 08/04/2025 17:33

asrl78 · 08/04/2025 15:22

It comes down to what can be proved beyond reasonable doubt in court. To convict a defendant of murder requires proof of intent to kill. Without that manslaughter is the only option.

It is not about respect, or lack of, for elders, it is about respect for people and life in general. Elderly people do not automatically deserve more respect than others just because they have existed for longer.

Their used to be a saying respect your elders.
He was a pensioner a vulnerable man killed by the feral.youth of today.
I bet they knew nothing of respect and probably never heard the term respect for elders.

Mojitoscoladas · 08/04/2025 17:33

JenniferBooth · 08/04/2025 15:32

You would never see a comment like "parents are not entitled to more respect just because they have children" on a thread where a parent of young children has been the victim of manslaughter.

Edited

Isn’t this because they have caring responsibilities ie that it’s even more shocking/tragic when a young child has a parent snatched from them when they’re still so dependent?

JHound · 08/04/2025 17:34

PassingStranger · 08/04/2025 15:17

Well done to the parents who obvs didn't raise their kids to have respect for their elders.
Name and shame them all.including the parents.
Countries fed up with the feral scum that are being churned out.

I don’t think this would make things better if they had done this but to a young person.

I think the “parents” just failed full stop. If they even had them.

MaggieMistletoe · 08/04/2025 17:39

We need to start prosecuting parents, massive fines etc. They've failed in their parental duties. My son is 12.5 and my eldest daughter is 11. As well as being good people, repsectful towards elders and conscientious members of society, they have never roamed the streets in their lives - I always know where they are. So sick of people who raise scum.

SatsumaDog · 08/04/2025 17:40

PassingStranger · 08/04/2025 17:33

Their used to be a saying respect your elders.
He was a pensioner a vulnerable man killed by the feral.youth of today.
I bet they knew nothing of respect and probably never heard the term respect for elders.

Exactly. We should be protecting the more vulnerable members of society. If an elderly person looked like they needed help
to carry their shopping for example, I would expect my teenagers to step up to assist, not beat the crap out of them for kicks.

Ilikeadrink14 · 08/04/2025 17:40

PassingStranger · 08/04/2025 15:17

Well done to the parents who obvs didn't raise their kids to have respect for their elders.
Name and shame them all.including the parents.
Countries fed up with the feral scum that are being churned out.

I agree. I have never understood why people can’t be named if they have broken the law. Why should they be protected? If they are old enough to do the deed, they are old enough to be named.
Poor man, and his devastated family. I feel for them.

Smallmercies · 08/04/2025 17:40

FOJN · 08/04/2025 17:18

Minors can receive an indeterminate sentence but not a life sentence.

Many still spend decades in prison, longer than adult lifers.

anotherside · 08/04/2025 17:41

I’m fine with it being called manslaughter, not with them probably walking free in 2 years as opposed to 20. Judges should be given more freedom to sentence in this sort of case and encouraged to deal out harsher sentences.

IleftmybaginNewportPagnell · 08/04/2025 17:43

SatsumaDog · 08/04/2025 17:40

Exactly. We should be protecting the more vulnerable members of society. If an elderly person looked like they needed help
to carry their shopping for example, I would expect my teenagers to step up to assist, not beat the crap out of them for kicks.

Also three girls of 14, 16 and 17 charged with GBH then manslaughter of Fredi Rivero (75) on Seven Sisters Road after attacking him at a bus stop late at night in February. One filmed the attack. Shocking.

PassingStranger · 08/04/2025 17:49

Scary thing is they could be parents themselves one day.

Society's broken down and say affects us all.

We all need to be concerned that a pensioner can't walk his dog in the park without being attacked by scumbags.
I'd be bloody so fuming and angry if it was my father I'd combust.
What the hell was the point of it all?
Something has to change, but don't think it will sadly.

Maybe it really is time that parents were held accountable if the offender is under 16.
Nobody's got the backbone to go there though.

MellowCritic · 08/04/2025 17:50

Ilikewinter · 08/04/2025 15:57

It wouldn't have taken me 6 hours to find the shits guilty. Wonder which jury members continued to deliberate for that amount of time. Name both of them, and I hope the judge throws the book at the pair of them.

You say that but if it was that clear cut then why wasn't a gulit verdict made quicker then?

lifeonmars100 · 08/04/2025 17:50

IleftmybaginNewportPagnell · 08/04/2025 17:09

The girl is out on bail?

She is on conditional bail pending sentencing. I was quite surprised to read this. I think the sentencing remarks are going to be interesting and I hope the judge does not mince her/his words. I also hope they are named. I saw a clip of the bereaved family on the court steps, they looked destroyed.

OP posts:
PeggyMitchellsCameo · 08/04/2025 17:50

If someone had done that to my late dad when he was that age, I don’t know how I’d have kept my dignity.
This is a man who has got through over eight decades on the planet, with a loving family. Absolutely no threat to anybody, having a walk in his local park.
These two thugs, and they are thugs, had absolutely nothing to fear from him. It doesn’t take someone of considerable intelligence that to understand assaulting an elderly, frail gentleman could kill him.
How would either of them felt had someone done this to someone in their own families?
The fact is, they couldn’t give a toss. And while we’ve been busy taking in a TV drama about a youth killing someone, we need to remember that in the vast majority of cases this attitude to others, of not caring, of lashing out, of having no thought for consequences begins at home.
It is absolutely sickening. And the fact that this boy had a balaclava and was intent on causing harm is significant. There was a plan to be violent.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 08/04/2025 17:52

MaggieMistletoe · 08/04/2025 17:39

We need to start prosecuting parents, massive fines etc. They've failed in their parental duties. My son is 12.5 and my eldest daughter is 11. As well as being good people, repsectful towards elders and conscientious members of society, they have never roamed the streets in their lives - I always know where they are. So sick of people who raise scum.

I feel this way too, but then I find myself remembering a news report years ago after a man was convicted of murdering a baby, either his own or his girlfriend's. It was dreadful, but the NSPCC put out a press release pointing out that they had a case history for him in their files. He had been abused as a child. We need to work so much harder as a society to support children whose parents have let them down, whether it's neglect, abuse or both. It's by no means inevitable that children with a very poor start in life will go off the rails but some will. We would all benefit by giving them more help. I'd put money on the two teenagers convicted here having had extremely poor parenting and an utter lack of good role models, boundaries, discipline etc etc.

Icanthinkformyselfthanks · 08/04/2025 17:52

Pigsears · 08/04/2025 17:31

She is 13.

@Pigsears she has been instrumental in the racial attack and manslaughter of a frail, elderly man. She does not deserve to live her life at liberty.

CautiousLurker01 · 08/04/2025 17:55

They both carry the same sentences (ie up to life imprisonment), but murder requires proof of intent, which is difficult to prove in younger defendants (I am guessing?). In summary, manslaughter is still a class of unlawful killing, possibly easier to prove, and the same lengthy sentences.

BoredZelda · 08/04/2025 17:55

lifeonmars100 · 08/04/2025 15:15

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/apr/08/two-teenagers-found-guilty- by of-manslaughter-of-80-year-old-man-in-leicestershire-park?CMP=sharebtnurl

I am sure I am not alone in being disturbed and upset by this awful case. I can't stop thinking about this poor man, setting off for a stroll with his dog and then to be the victim of a vicious unprovoked attack of such severity that he died as a result of it. I can't understand how the boy was found guilty of manslaughter and not murder. I appreciate that a murder conviction hinges on "intent" i.e what was in the defendant's mind when they committed the offence and of course I was not in court to hear all the evidence but as a layperson I just don't get it. Maybe things will be clearer when they are sentenced. I feel so sorry for the family, the details are so awful and will surely haunt them forever. The fact that the girl filmed the attack is truly sickening but seems par for the course these days. Mr Kohli must have been terrified and in so much pain, what a terrible end to his life

You answered the question in your OP. The difference is the intent.

The CPS will have had all the information on which they made their assessment of which charges to bring. In court, the evidence would have been presented, and people who were a party to that have made a decision. If it there was reasonable doubt that the defendants intended to kill or cause GBH to the victim, there can’t be a murder charge.

OonaStubbs · 08/04/2025 17:59

Faith and confidence in the justice system in this country is at an all time low. These scrotes murdered a man and the sentence should have been life, meaning life, and it should be served in a proper prison, not a holiday camp with free playstation, free food etc.

EvangelicalAboutButteredToast · 08/04/2025 17:59

asrl78 · 08/04/2025 15:22

It comes down to what can be proved beyond reasonable doubt in court. To convict a defendant of murder requires proof of intent to kill. Without that manslaughter is the only option.

It is not about respect, or lack of, for elders, it is about respect for people and life in general. Elderly people do not automatically deserve more respect than others just because they have existed for longer.

BS. They are vulnerable and in a civilised society we protect our vulnerable citizens first.

caramac04 · 08/04/2025 18:07

The poor victim was targeted after previously suffering racial abuse from a gang of teenagers- including the defendants - is my understanding.
Given the viciousness of the assault and the terrible injuries sustained by the victim I think the defendant’s have got off lightly. I doubt the victim would have walked again or had much quality of life had he survived his injuries.
I would hate to be the parents of the defendants or their mates but it doesn’t sound like they instilled any moral fibre in their horrible children.
The attack was awful beyond words.

FOJN · 08/04/2025 18:12

Smallmercies · 08/04/2025 17:40

Many still spend decades in prison, longer than adult lifers.

I'm not disagreeing with either of your claims I'm simply pointing out that as minors neither of them will be given a "life sentence" regardless of the sentencing guidelines for adults and even though an indeterminate sentence could see them serving decades.

EasternStandard · 08/04/2025 18:12

Really awful, so sad. Poor man and family.

Didshejustsaythatoutloud · 08/04/2025 18:13

GeorgianaM · 08/04/2025 15:34

A boy who slapped an 80-year-old man with a slider shoe as he cowered on the ground before punching and kicking him is facing jail after being convicted of manslaughter.
The teenager was just 14 when he donned a balaclava and viciously attacked retired factory owner Bhim Kohli as he walked his dog Rocky in a park next to his home in September last year.
The baby-faced teen was acquitted of murder by a jury at Leicester Crown Court on Tuesday but found guilty of the lesser charge following a six-week trial.
A girl, who was just 12 at the time, filmed part of the attack and could be heard laughing in the video as the pensioner cowered on his knees was also found guilty of manslaughter after prosecutors said she 'encouraged the violence'.
The pair cannot be named because of their age.
The boy, now 15 showed no emotion while the girl, 13 cried in the dock as the verdicts were handed down after the jury deliberated for more than six hours.
Family members sobbed, with one walking out of the court in tears. The teenagers will be sentenced next month when a judge will consider lifting their anonymity.
Judge Mr Justice Turner granted the girl bail but said it was 'no indication' of what would be decided when she is sentenced. The boy was remanded in custody.
In an emotional statement delivered on the court steps Mr Kohli's daughter Susan paid tribute to her 'amazing' father who was 'brutally and cruelly' taken away.

Describing the day of the attack she told how they were alerted to what had happened and went to the park to help.
'He was screaming out; he was in that much pain - it was horrendous, we have never seen him like that before,' she said. 'We all thought he would go to hospital to be treated and he would then be fine. We never imagined he wouldn't return home.'
She said listening to trial and being shown the videos of their father being attacked would never leave them.
'We feel anger and disgust towards the teenagers who took dad away from us,' she said.
'They humiliated an 80-year-old man, assaulted him, filmed it and laughed at him.
'The boy, who told witnesses he had anger problems and couldn't stop, used violence so severe that he broke three of dad's ribs and neck which caused trauma to his spinal column.
'Videos of the incident were filmed and shockingly found on the girl's phone. Dad did not deserve this, and we wouldn't wish this pain on anyone else.
'One of the videos showed dad on his knees being hit over the head with the boy's slider.

'A loud horrible slapping sound is heard when the boy struck dad. Hearing the girl laugh at this assault on dad is utterly disgusting. This sound plays over and over in our heads.
'Also captured on video is dad's attempt to call for help as he shouted out for his grandson. We didn't hear his call for help and this upsets us deeply. We can't put into words the pain we feel every day, and this has magnified during the trial.'
She said he was an 'amazing' man who loved life and who never took himself seriously, and despite his age and how frail he looked, was healthy and very active. He had three allotment plots where he grew lots of fruit and vegetables which he would share them with the family, friends and neighbours.
She added: 'He was the person who knitted our family together and we miss him every second of every day.
'Our house feels so empty without him and will never be the same. The area we have loved for so many years and called 'home' feels so different now and we will never feel safe.
'Having happened only a minute's walk of where we live is something we cannot get away from and it is a constant reminder. Every time my mum opens the front door she thinks about what happened to her husband.'
Detective Chief Inspector Mark Sinski, from the East Midlands Special Operations Unit Murder Investigation Team, said: 'Bhim Kohli was simply doing what he did every day, walking his dog on the park that was just yards from his own front door.
'But instead of being able to enjoy an evening stroll with Rocky on a warm summer's day, he was confronted by a teenage boy, who was encouraged by a teenage girl, attacked him and left him in agony on the floor.'
Kelly Matthews from the Crown Prosecution Service said the incident shocked the community of Leicester and beyond.
She said: 'We have shown in this trial that these young defendants were responsible for Mr Kohli's death - in an unprovoked attack on an innocent man. They filmed the incident and laughed and bragged about it afterwards.'

Mr Kohli was discovered lying in agony in Leicester's Franklin Park- just yards from his home - by neighbours and his son and daughter.
He had been racially abused and struck around the face with the plastic sandal as he cowered on his knees before being kicked and punched.
He was taken to hospital where he died the next day. A post-mortem examination revealed the cause of Mr Kohli's death to be a neck injury 'causing trauma to the spinal cord'. He also suffered broken ribs.
Prosecutor Harpreet Sandhu KC told jurors the boy had used 'gratuitous' and 'intense' violence before leaving his victim for dead.
He said he had no reason to hit the 'defenceless' elderly man who, because he was on the ground, was in a vulnerable position but his 'instinct' was to use violence.
Mr Sandhu said the girl knew what would happen when she pointed the elderly man out to the boy. 'She knew there would be violence and she had a desire to capture it - and capturing it provided encouragement for the violence to be meted out,' he said.
The trial heard the boy carried out the racist attack after his girlfriend broke up with him and he needed 'anger releasing'.
He went on the run and later tried to claim Mr Kohli had pulled a knife in an attempt to justify the violence. But Mr Kohli's family said he never carried a knife, and no knife was found at the scene.
The girl had a picture of Mr Kohli on her phone, taken a week before the attack, and pointed him out to the boy when they saw him in the park following previous run ins with him.
The photograph of Mr Kohli was at around the same time of day as he was attacked, with prosecutors accusing her of keeping the image on her phone so she could 'target him'.
The court heard the girl regularly 'recorded violence' on her mobile phone, and had dozens of other recordings showing children fighting each other and another where an unidentified victim was called a 'P' and had something thrown over him.
The three video clips of the attack on Mr Kohli were recovered from the girl's mobile phone in a section of Snapchat called 'my eyes only' which requires a code for access, which the prosecution said was an attempt to hide the evidence.
She was accused of 'egging' on the boy, and remained with him during the attack to 'support' him when other teenagers they were with ran away.
In a police interview she was asked if the video showing Mr Kohli being slapped with the shoe had given her enjoyment. She replied: 'Not really but it was a bit funny at the time'.
The girl, who was dressed in black trousers, white shirt and black jumper with her hair tied up and was supported by her mother in court, showed no emotion as she was found guilty.
The boy, who looked at his mother in the public gallery as the verdicts were delivered, wore a pale blue tracksuit.
He had admitted to having 'anger issues' but claimed he slapped Mr Kohli in the face with his slider out of 'instinct' after they tussled over the shoe and 'ran at him' before pushing him as he believed the elderly man was going to hit his friend.
But the court heard the boy sent messages admitting to the attack including one which read: 'I didn't mean to batter him.'
In reply to a message saying an 80-year-old had been 'smacked up' in the park, the boy wrote: 'I did that. ...I didn't mean to batter him. It was one hit and then my anger turned in.'
Before the attack on Mr Kohli, the boy had taken a balaclava out of his Gucci bag and put it on 'in preparation for violence'. Asked why he had a balaclava or 'bally' as he called it, he replied simply, 'fashion'.
The court heard that after the attack he searched for news stories about it and then, ten seconds later, for Adele tickets. When asked by one friend in a message if he was 'sing it' - slang for worrying about something - he replied with two laughing emojis and wrote 'Nah, chilling bro'.
At 8.21pm on September 2, about 25 minutes before Kohli died, he sent a laughing emoji to friends and said: 'Feds know it is me. Got my name and picture.'
The court was told that after his arrest, he wrote a letter to a support worker, in which he said he regretted what he had done. In it he wrote: 'My ex broke up with me and I was struggling with that so I kind of just needed anger etc releasing'.
He went on to say: 'I'm so nervous well scared and worried. I accept I did it and I am doing time. I am just scared about how long I have to do.'
When told the letter would have to be disclosed he replied: 'That's my manslaughter plea gone'.
Due to prior police contact with Mr Kohli, the Leicestershire police made a mandatory referral to the Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC). The IOPC decided this investigation should be carried out locally by the force. The investigation report has been submitted to the IOPC for them to review.
...........

If I had my way, a rope would be involved for both of them, but the chances are they will serve a paltry amount of time in a youth detention centre and be free to walk the streets again.

I shouldn't have read all your post. I'm in tears.
Utterly heartbreaking. Little fuckers.

Evilspiritgin · 08/04/2025 18:15

if she’s got the gentleman’s photo on her phone and he brought along his balaclava it’s pre-meditated , so that hopefully will add some weight to sentencing

I really hate to think this but do we think she’s been the more dominant force between the two? The 12/13/14 yr old girls who come into our shop causing trouble are undoubtedly nasty

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 08/04/2025 18:16

OonaStubbs · 08/04/2025 17:59

Faith and confidence in the justice system in this country is at an all time low. These scrotes murdered a man and the sentence should have been life, meaning life, and it should be served in a proper prison, not a holiday camp with free playstation, free food etc.

They haven't been sentenced yet.

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