I don't understand how this is manslaughter and not murder

[lifeonmars100]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/apr/08/two-teenagers-found-guilty- by of-manslaughter-of-80-year-old-man-in-leicestershire-park?CMP=sharebtnurl

I am sure I am not alone in being disturbed and upset by this awful case. I can't stop thinking about this poor man, setting off for a stroll with his dog and then to be the victim of a vicious unprovoked attack of such severity that he died as a result of it. I can't understand how the boy was found guilty of manslaughter and not murder. I appreciate that a murder conviction hinges on "intent" i.e what was in the defendant's mind when they committed the offence and of course I was not in court to hear all the evidence but as a layperson I just don't get it. Maybe things will be clearer when they are sentenced. I feel so sorry for the family, the details are so awful and will surely haunt them forever. The fact that the girl filmed the attack is truly sickening but seems par for the course these days. Mr Kohli must have been terrified and in so much pain, what a terrible end to his life

This is nothing to do with 'gentle' parenting. These kids have probably been left to their own devices since they were toddlers and given no consistent boundaries. That's neglect. The other possibility is that they were completely unmanageable and the parents couldn't cope. We often see posts here from parents at the end of their tether with very young children who are violent and really hard work. 15 years of austerity has had a terrible effect on mental health services and social services, as we all know, so parents and children are not getting the help they need. Short-sighted, and we're all paying the price.

It’s about time parents were held accountable and in the dock for raising such feral kids . It’s like they have sex and then just don’t do any parenting at all and leave society to deal with their awful offspring .

The Justice System and courts downplay male violence. Also there is institutional racism, so the racism is not taken as seriously as it should be

Disgusting if they were lenient. This case is the most upsetting I have seen in some time.

But that’s the point. It’s not murder if they didn’t intend it to end in death.

We have laws in this country. Murder and manslaughter have definitions. However much you want it to, this did not meet the criteria for murder.

Because if they weren't, it would have featured - ethnicity is only ever not mentioned when the criminals are white.

A couple of things stood out to me when i read some local coverage yesterday after the verdicts

1. a family member of mr kohlis posted on a local newspaper fb page that he’d been in court everyday and they’d found it extremely difficult the way the families of the accused behaved, he said they were high fiving each other during the court case when evidence appeared to be going their way

2. mr kohlis daughter released a statement which included thanks for all witnesses and she particularly thanked the children who had given evidence and their parents and commented how brave they were. Until then I hadn’t even realised they’d been children giving evidence and it’s good to hear some parents still do the right thing

They didn’t plead guilty to manslaughter either. Boy was on trial for murder and manslaughter got found not guilty of murder but guilty of manslaughter, girl was “just” tried for manslaughter

Don’t be so ridiculous, where is your evidence for this statement. Courts work within the law.

The law is wrong and needs changing.

Such a depressing thread. And not because of the verdict.

That's not strictly correct. They have to intend death or grievous bodily harm (which then results in death) So the Mens Rea of murder is actually intent to cause death or serious harm.

I suspect the reason the jury convicted them of manslaughter and not murder is down to their age. And also, in cases like this, where the jury are offered a choice of both, and it's not premeditated, they are often inclined to go for manslaughter.

You really believe this? Can you give any examples of child criminals where their ethnicity was revealed?

Precisely. It's not gentle parenting at all. At best its likely to be neglect, at worst, abusive parenting.

It feels like mumsnet has been taken over by the Daily Mail sometimes.

Axel Rudakubana

If who was lenient?

Leaked, revealed whatever; no one ever leaks a white child criminal's ethnicity

Extract from what the boy wrote:

” I feel like my case is evil. I ain’t that type of person. I kinda just needed anger etc releasing.”
He continued: “I feel like I have let my mum down so much. I am nervous, well scared and worried. I accept I did it and I am doing time. I am just scared about how long I have to do.”
The prosecution said at no point in the letter did the boy say he was acting in self-defence or in someone else’s defence. When told the letter would have to be disclosed, he responded: “That’s my manslaughter plea gone.”

No remorse, no respect, just disgusting concern for himself.

I hope both criminals are named.

Bad parenting is bad parenting, regardless of whether it be "gentle", "neglectful" or whatever. And there are too many bad parents out there today. Hence we have so many cases of children killing others. It needs to be stopped.

In this case it makes little difference to the sentence. As children they are likely to be let out when they become adults as long as they aren’t seen to pose danger to anyone.

Well yes but we also know the ethnicity of James Bulger’s murderers so I don’t think one example really makes your case.

This is not true. You have to intend death or GBH.

We know their ethnicity because we know who they are - their ethnicity was never a feature of the case. You're being disingenuous.

Older people aren't deserving of more respect just because they have existed for longer. However, their age does make them more vulnerable than a younger adult and much less able to fight back or even run away. The same would be true if they had attacked someone with disabilities.