For not wanting my children to ‘learn’ Christianity?

[AmusedLemur]

I use learn loosely, I don’t mean learn, I mean be spoken to about God as if it is fact, when I myself do not believe.

context

I am an atheist. My husband was raised by a very catholic family, however he himself is not a practicing catholic (he doesn’t attended church, never prays, etc)

He says he does believe in a God, but it’s not something he lives his life by / he thinks about too regularly.

This has never been an issue for us because mainly we’re on the same page. Yes he will take his mother and father to church on Christmas Eve, but that is as about as religious as he gets.

Let me preface this by saying I have an amazing relationship with his family. I love them. We got married in a church to please them, and when we had our baby (Gia - 2) we got her Christened so they wouldn’t worry.

I have no problem with them talking about their love for God in front of me or anything like that. But, Gia is now of an age where she is taking things in. And they tell her that God is the reason she is here, to be thankful for him, he gave her life and everything she has. More has been said, but I’m not there when it is, so I’m not entirely sure what.

For a 2 year old, she obviously believes when her Grandmother tells her this and so comes home and asks me if I’ve thanked God, tells me she loves him, and so on and so forth.

I don’t want to correct Gia by saying God isn’t real, because it’s her choice to believe. But am I being unreasonable by not wanting my in laws to teach her that God is real from such a young age?

Yeah, this is the kind of attitude that I want to protect them from.

You literally do not know this woman.

You can go with the 'Some people believe....' line for this kind of thing. You don't have to trash in-laws beliefs, but you can just make it clear it's not an objective truth and people believe lots of things.

I think people HAVE read your explanation, @AmusedLemur . And there is a feeling among some (including me) that irrespective of how you try to justify this, it is lacking in moral integrity and self-respect to baptise your child and make a solemn promise in front of witnesses to raise your child in a faith when you have absolutely no intention of doing so. Irrespective of what your mother in law believes or thanks for you doing.

So yes, to repeat, absolutely fine for a baptised Christian to be taught about Jesus as fact. It doesn't mean she's going to become a nun in later life. Grandma can talk to her about Jesus as fact and you can undermine her until the cows come home. Seems fine to be. The child will make up her own mind, same as any Catholic I've ever known.

Moral integrity 🤣🤣

well......what do YOU think moral integrity is, OP?

But why should OP "not trash" MIL's beliefs when MIL is undermining OP's?

@AmusedLemur You literally do not know this woman.

No, I don't. I only know what you have written about her.

The fact she was worried about her granddaughter not being Christened tells me she takes her Faith seriously. Which is why I concluded that she wouldn't be happy with you "going through the motions".

Obviously she's concerned about the lack of religious instruction in her granddaughter's life so she's putting her 6 penneth in.

thats a bit dramatic.

I’d say standing up for your beliefs and core value systems trumps all else and is the lesson you want your daughter to learn.

Do you jump aboard with other traditions you dont believe in or only those that require a party and a family get together or that all your friends do?

I think its time you accept YWBU to baptise her in the first place and now you reap what you sow.

Yes, I appreciate we'll probably need to send out a search party.

The kid is 2!

You are painting a gloomy picture of England here. From your account, we are a nation of godless opportunists. I am more optimistic about the national character and think that there are people of faith who worship and mark life's milestones in a place sacred to their religion, many who do not believe in a divine being so choose and pay for the many secular places available for celebrations, and a minority who thoughtlessly (ie without thought for those who do believe) exploit places hallowed to the faithful for the sake of a good photo, standing in public telling lies as they do so. The logical extension of the latter line of thinking is to book your place in church for your funeral, just in case there is a heaven and a God, and because a church beats a crematorium every time when it comes to aesthetics.

You are absolutely right OP. Whatever your beliefs are it’s on you and your DH to decide what to tell your child and when, it’s not your PIL’s responsibility unless you’ve delegated it to them. I think they need to stop these conversations in general because they sound way too much for such a small child. It’s not acceptable. And I’m saying it as a person who respects Christianity deeply. I chose to marry in a church and to christen my child. I see it as a cultural commitment and acceptance of my heritage. DD knows about different religions and respect them but she’s learnt about them much later. The only deity she believed in at 2 was Father Christmas.

The issue is that they don't extend the same courtesy, they don't say "we believe that...".

That isn't fair and doesn't respect the parents decision to not raise the child in faith. This will need addressing going forward

Christianity is embedded in the foundations of our country, not learning about it is like willfully not teaching about the Romans.

I’m a teacher and there is no place for religion in schools, apart from teaching about the different religions to promote tolerance. All religious schools should be banned.

As a new teacher in a CofE mainly forces school, I was forced to teach Noah’s Ark to Reception children as fact. It’s actually a horrific story (Ricky Gervais does a brilliant routine on it). On the day of 9/11, many of the forces parents were shipping out and the headteacher was left to tell the children and explain who was picking them up. I will never forget one 4 year old j hysterical because she believed that God would now send another flood because of what the bad men did. Absolutely horrific and I vowed never to teach religion as fact again and I never have.

When I had my children I talked about all religions with them from a very young age. We visited all different places of worship and were warmly welcomed. My children were free to be any religion they wanted to or none - when they were younger they explored being Sikh, Muslim and Christian for a while. They are now both firmly atheists with my DD very anti-religion.

I'm atheist, however I've been careful with my DC to stay neutral. I've explained that I don't believe in God, but that other people believe in different God's, basic conversations about why they do.
Our DD1 had about 2 years of saying she believed in God due to lessons at school, then she said she didn't anymore because it didn't make sense.
Our DS currently believes in God (surprisingly as he's usually quite logical and previously didnt) but he's seemed quite proud saying he's a Christian recently. Again I'm sure he will grow out of it as there's no pressure to believe from us, but there's no harm in children having an interest or wanting to believe in it. You just have to make sure any pressure from grandparents is counteracted with a neutral "it's fine to believe or not believe" explanation.

OP by definition has no beliefs. If she holds beliefs around religion (that it should be trashed) then she's not really an atheist, she's a militant secularist.

In a tolerant, multicultural society, trashing other people's beliefs and belief itself is an expression of intolerance.

gosh, she's only 2! she's probably got barely an idea of what her grandparents are saying, she's just parroting it as children do. christians usually speak about religion in child-friendly terms to children, so they're probably just saying things along the line of "god created you and he loves you".

does she have a set of loving grandparents who you get on with? if so, why drive a wedge between them now while she's still so young?

your daughter is going to hear a range of opinions and beliefs throughout her life. she may accept whatever grandma says as fact now but as she grows and learns and develops her own worldview and reasoning things will shift and change and she will use what she can observe and her own logic to reach conclusions, including your own beliefs. would it really be so terrible if she became religious? there are worse things she could be, and it's your job as a parent to accept your children's choices (within reason).

also, there really isn't any more proof that god doesn't exist than he does exist. yes, you can't prove a negative well quite so we will never know!

@AmusedLemur If you took a moment to read the thread you will see I have mentioned my DH and I are on the same page! He was brought up being told religion is fact and it took until university for him to be free from it!
There is no divide in my household. We both believe we should navigate religion with our own child on our own

If you are not a baptised Catholic and your husband is, there is a divide,

I'm wondering if you both expressed these sentiments (above) to the Priest/Deacon in your PreCana classes?
Did you male it clear that you were an atheist?

If one party isn't Catholic then they will be asked why they want to get married in the Catholic Church. Saying that "we are doing it so not to upset his mother" won't wash.

There are strict rules for Catholics marrying non-catholics.

First, the Catholic person must obtain (a) permission from the local bishop to marry a baptized Christian of another faith, or (b) a dispensation from the bishop to marry an unbaptized person, including a person of a non-Christian religion.

The person guiding your marriage preparation will be able to help you with this process. According to Canon Law 1125, three conditions are need for granting this permission:
1) The Catholic party must declare he or she intends to remain Catholic and promises to baptize and raise all offspring in the Catholic Church;
2) the non-Catholic party is fully informed of the promises made by the Catholic party and the related obligations;
and 3) both parties are instructed about the purposes and essential properties of marriage which apply to both parties.

So either you both misrepresented yourself to the Church or we aren't getting the whole story here.
If a priest has any doubts about the intentions of the engaged couple he is duty-bound not to marry them.

If you read clause 1. You will see where Grandma is coming from.
Even if you husband is non practising he is still a Catholic in the eyes of the Church.

I find it hard to believe non of these issues were discussed.

Just correct her. I would also have a word with anyone telling a 2 year old that they needed to thank ‘god’ for anything.
granny is entitled to her own beliefs but not to indoctrinate anyone else.

There's other ways of doing that.
Effectively you've misled them and the god you don't believe in.

My mother asked if I was christening my son and I said no. I explained it would be hypocritical if me to do so as I don't do the whole church god thing.
She accepted my decision. I can see if I had been foolish enough to try to appease her then it would have ended in misery for her and me.

There's other ways of doing that.

I agree.

For those that have an aversion to God/have no belief in Him there are Baby Naming Ceremonies and Hand Fasting Ceremonies.

A good friend of mine refused to have her children Christened full stop because she didn't like organised religion.

Another friend was Methodist and married a Catholic. They had a Catholic wedding and she took the children to Catholic Sunday School. They both went with them to Church until they were 18 and left for Uni.
Now he still comes to the Catholic Church and she's gone back to the Methodist Church.
I don't know what the kids are doing now as they moved away.

No, saying god is real and god is not real are not the same. One of them is true and one is not.

Say "Your granny thinks god is real, but I don't believe in it." She'll find out in time who's mistaken.

Although, I agree with you, I believe that children, as they grow up, can see who's being reasonable and who isn't. British society is becoming less religious every year. You don't get many adults who still believe in Santa.