To have cut off my friend who stayed in an abusive marriage

[TheIvyRestaurant]

I had a friend, let’s call her Kate - she met a man about 12 years ago and got pregnant very quickly, after 3 months. They decided to make a go of it, and from about mid-way through her pregnancy I noticed his red flag behaviour. Then things got worse when she had the baby and he moved in. They then had another DD about 2 years later and they got married a few years after that. I could give hundreds of examples of how he was emotionally abusive but here are a few:

• Kate was “allowed” to come out for drinks with me (I eventually was her only friend as he alienated her from so many people) but only during the day - she had to be back at 6pm so she could do bedtime as he couldn’t cope apparently. I’m not talking babies - this is when their DDs were 6 and 8. One night we were having so much fun we lost track of time and realised it was 6.15pm. She had 9 texts from him saying she had “failed at her task” and “failed as a parent” because “you know that I can’t do bedtimes so the girls are now going to be up really late thanks to you putting yourself first”.
• She had to go term time only at work because he can’t look after his own children for full days while she works, it triggers his PTSD. Meaning she had a lot less money. He also insisted on keeping their finances seperate, so whilst he stayed full time and would buy £900 TVs and an e scooter, she would have to forgo buying lunch at work because her salary dropped so much.
• During lockdown, things ramped up - he was beyond nasty and would text her from other rooms of the house saying “Tell those kids to STFU before lose my shit at you all” and “Can you put some clothes on, it makes me want to vomit seeing you in pyjamas during the day” and “You’d better be doing home schooling with them, if they’re then out to be thick kids it will be your fault”. He couldn’t home schooling apparently, it triggered his PTAD. She would text me these screenshots on a daily basis.
• One time we went to a local concert, and she decided she’d stay out for a drink after and stand up to him. He wasn’t happy and was demanding she come home but she put her phone in her bag. A few hours later, she checked her phone to find 67 missed calls and the ring doorbell showed paramedics at their door. He called 999 saying he thinks he has sepsis. He didn’t, and they soon left. But he spent months saying the stress she caused by staying out brought on sepsis like symptoms.
• He’d really have a go at her parenting. All the time. She’s an AMAZING mum, but if she didn’t have things 100% organised (like literally every mum on the planet) he’d go nuts. I was round once and he said “The girls want to go in the garden where are their hats?”. Because she didn’t instantly know and had to look in various cupboards and coat pockets, he really went at her saying “Smart mother you are - don’t even know where their clothes are”. I pointed out “Well neither do you” and the look her gave me terrified me to the point I left after that.
• Me and her went away with all our kids to a theme park hotel for the night and he was texting her having a go about her parenting - the kids weren’t even there! He’s obsessed with her “failing”. “I gave you a new routine and you failed at it. You left the house 15 minutes after we agreed. FAILED”.
• Her DDs eventually started treating her like shit. If they wanted her from another room they’d shout “Kate! Get here RIGHT NOW”. She said it’s because that’s how her DH speaks to her and they were copying

I spent a lot of personal time and energy worrying about my friend. I told her from early on to leave him, not to marry him, that’s she can do better and she’s a shell of her former self. Eventually, after another text simply saying “Guess what your latest fail has been? Go on take a guess.” (she forgot to turn the dishwasher on and he had nothing to eat his food on which apparently triggered his PTSD) she told me she wants to leave him. I supported her for the next 3 months. I did all sorts - looked around rentals on her behalf (he was NEVER gonna leave the house of his own accord and she didn’t want police involvement). Researched cheap items to but for a new kitchen. Researched women’s groups and charities that support single mums. Spent hours pouring over her rights and how to claim maintenance and the pitfalls she might encounter. Researching the cheapest forms of divorce. None of this she could do herself in case he checked her phone or caught her.

I did it to the detriment of spending time with my own kids and DH. My DH at this point was supportive but said i was too involved and it’s not my job, and pointed out my friend would post “we are such a happy family” type posts on social media and he assured me “she’s never gonna leave him you’re wasting your time”. We once fell out about it. But I persevered and was determined to get her out of there.

My uncle is a landlord and I asked him a favour to rent her a 2 bed property for a while at a cheap rate until she could find something more suitable. He agreed, letting down the person he promised it to. I was grateful and my friend was delighted she had a place to escape to.

A week before she was due to move in (she’d signed a tenancy agreement) she asked to meet me for lunch. She told me that I had been encouraging her to leave her husband for too long, pushing her into doing it and she didn’t like it and I was to stop. Because she loved him and wasn’t leaving. I asked her if her DH was making her say these things and she said “no”. I’m not sure if this is true. She said we can still be friends but I have to stop this “vendetta” against her DH.

A few days later, still heartbroken, I decided I’d had enough and her marriage had imposed too much on my own life. With DH’s support I texted her to say I couldn’t be her friend anymore. She had gaslighted me, and taken me for granted and she was on her own. I then blocked her on everything and haven’t seen her since. Luckily my uncle was v understanding and didn’t pursue her for her contractual obligations.

That was 3 years ago. I don’t talk about it because I feel so bruised emotionally from it and I tell people we drifted apart. We then moved away shortly after that (for different reasons) which made the cut-off easier.

Anyway caught up with my mum today and she said “You haven’t spoken about Kate in ages. You used to mention her all the time”. I told her the whole story.

I’ve come away feeling sick with guilt. My mum made me feel really awful - said I shouldn’t have given up on my friend and I should have bided my time before bringing it up again. That “That poor woman and those 2 girls are stuck with that vile man and you’re doing nothing about it”. My mum was in an abusive marriage (albeit a violent one as well) and said “so called friends like me” who bolted when her stories became too much are people she will never forgive or forget. That of you know bad things are happening it’s your obligation to stop them, and I gave up too soon.

FWIW. DH looks now and again on social media and Kate and her DH are still together.

I now feel so guilty and confused and second guessing my decision I was otherwise so sure about for 3 years. Please tell me MN honestly - WIBU to cut Kate off? Should I try and reach out to her? My mum gave me a new perspective and I honestly feel sick with what I did.

I didn’t ghost her. I told her I couldn’t be her friend, and that I’d be blocking her. At the time, it’s what I really felt I needed for my own sanity.

You gave too much. That was your choice. You must take responsibility for that.

I know. It was a tough lesson to learn. I felt like I was truly helping but actually I ended up feeling stupid and humiliated

For all the people scolding OP for not understanding the psychological complexities of abuse- sure, that may be true, but remember that OP isnt a DV counsellor, she isnt a psychologist, she isnt her friend's support worker. She is her friend who has tried for years to assist her, support her and help keep her safe in the best way she knows how.

You cannot expect someone who isnt qualified in that area to give perfect responses or perfect support. OP has gone above and beyond for her friend and this has been going on for years. She hasnt given up after one month of trying FFS. Its unreasonable to expect the OP to know exactly the right thing to say or the right thing to do- and even IF the OP had experienced DV herself- an approach that worked for her may not work for her friend. Thats literally how therapy works and why finding the right counsellor is key- what works for one person may trigger or annoy someone else. If supporting someone to leave an abusive partner is so straightforward and there is always a "right way" to do it that always leads to success then it would be easy to assist people, but we all know it isnt.

No.

I meant that day she made me feel like absolute shit, through the medium of the abuse she was experiencing - that’s what I meant when I said “her abuse”, I didn’t mean “her abuse of me”.

Hey @TheIvyRestaurant

I just wanted to say please do not beat yourself up about this. You did your best, and that's all any of us can do. I think that you felt okay with your decision to walk away from the friendship for 3 years meant that it was right for you and your family. As others have said, you have to keep your oxygen mask on yourself first in order to be able to help others xx

Just remember that the one person who is responsible for what Kate is going through is her husband. It's not your fault and it's not Kate's fault.

I totally get how hurt you must have felt at Kate's words about a "vendetta" after you had tried so hard to help, to your own personal cost. I suspect it wasn't the real Kate who was saying this, however, and it was maybe just words that had come out of her husband's mouth, that she had heard many times before, . Emotional abuse is a form of brain washing ... It's hard to know where the line is drawn between your own thoughts and an abusers...

Like others, I suspect, there's a lot more that she hadn't shared with you. I'm just saying this, so that you don't take her words any more to heart than you already have. You may find that Kate has regretted saying that to you many times already and has been beating herself up about how she handled that conversation.

I've heard it said that fear and anger are often two sides of the same coin, so perhaps that had something to do with it.

I can see why you were so desperate to help and get her out of that situation, but as others have said, it's incredibly hard and frightening to actually do in practice. The gap between wanting to and going through with it is a bit like jumping the Atlantic Ocean in one leap. Sometimes all we can handle are baby steps, or baby thoughts. Maybe she appreciated the research but it was giving her an escape in her head, it's just she wasn't ready to jump. As she said she found the thought of staying less frightening than struggling in a small house. And we must not forget that the point of leaving an abusive relationship is actually the most dangerous time, so no person should ever be judged for not going through with it.

I think sometimes, there's a fine line between help and pressure (even if only perceived pressure) and I'd agree it was just more than she could cope with at that time. She was/is in a controlling relationship and maybe she had perceived your efforts to help as controlling her (in a good way) instead? She's probably felt out of control for a number of years, so maybe it was just making her feel out of control again.

I'm so sorry that your mum had a DV relationship and you had to suffer with other relationships in your childhood. It is so understandable that you wanted to help so much, and everything that you did came from a good place.

Please don't take your mum's words to heart. You did what you could. More than most would do. As I said earlier, the person who is responsible for this is her husband. You are not abusing her - he is. I think sometimes we have to be honest with ourselves about our ability to help. It is so so hard to just walk another's path with them when they are suffering. When we get to the stage we can't deal with it any more then we are not helping the person ...

You look after yourself xxx

@Mudandstones

I think this

I am struck that in all your interactions with your friend, that you see her behaviours as deliberately being about you. About letting you down, betraying you, gaslighting you. But they weren’t. They were all about how your friend feels and the psychological state she is in, living with a psychological torturer.

is absolute nonsense. I don't think the OP made it all about herself or saw her friend's behaviours as all about her at all. I don't think you've read her posts very carefully. She is just aware of how she did feel and she was allowed to eventually prioritise that.

Two wrongs don't make a right!

@OopsyDaisie the OP didn't cause the husband's terrible behaviour.

Unfortunately abuse makes you think your think in the wrong, so your friend wasn't able to leave him. Thats his fault, not you or your friends. You have to do what's right for you and your family, as she is doing what she feels is right at the time. If she was able to leave him I'm sure she would.

You are not being unreasonable - you tried repeatedly - there comes a point that you have to protect your own peace.

YANBU your friendship and the support was starting to impact on your own relationships with your husband and family. It's easy to say with the benefit of hindsight but I.would have left the door open if she ever left him...I would hav been worried from the convo you had did he possibly find out she was going to leave and blamed you?

I don’t want to disregard the strength of your feelings on this. Abusive relationships take their toll on more than just the people directly involved, as I’m sure you know from your own mum, and can have really long lasting effects.

But the responsibility you need to take and that I was alluding to, wasn’t for your own feelings. It says something that you thought it was, and perhaps also explains how you’ve got yourself to where you are now. You need to take responsibility for the fact that you chose to put a lot of time and effort, emotional and practical, into finding solutions for your friend, and then just put it all on her - the one suffering domestic abuse. In the situation she was in, giving you a response you would have been happy with may not have been possible. In fact, you found out that it wasn’t.

You need to take responsibility for the fact you chose to do things that you wanted her to deal with in a fashion you approved of, and cut her off when she didn’t do that. That’s not okay. Nobody gets to do that to another person. Of course it would have been nice to have your efforts acknowledged and for her to say thanks but not right now. But her reaction absolutely is that of someone who could not accept. Not someone who didn’t want to.

m thinking her husband found out she was going to leave and she panicked and said it was all your falt and she' would tell you to lay off when she saw you at that lunch

youre not wrong to stop helping though you need to look after youself first

Hi op I've read this thread for information and guidance because I feel I am in a very very watered down version of what you went through.

A very close friend of mine for the past seven years met a man online about three years ago. He sent photos that I am sure are not of him and frankly I think my friend fell in love with his look and how intelligent and knowledgeable he is. They are in a discussion forum online together with others. Whenever we meet it is the main topic of discussion too much of the time- who is the man / is he the man in the photos etc. My friend like yours seems to want me to spend my spare time finding out who the man in the photos is and whether it is the man she is speaking to. I recently found out the photos he sent her are of an international male model... very sure it is not the man she is speaking to. And yet. And yet it would be so easy for my friend to now join everything up and end the mystery but she seems to be reluctant to do this. She has phone s** with him ,she is in love with him, they are getting closer, he is about to confess something etc. I'm exhausted by it. The last time j saw her last week she was messaging him from the table and he made some joke she read out about me not eating too much. That I ate too much or something she read it out and laughed?! an in joke together that I was overweight? At that moment I just felt so stupid for caring so much for going over to see her every few weeks for a long time and for trying to help her out of the really strange situation she has found herself in. I am choosing your option 3 and am going to let my friend go, I have given so much I need to focus on myself and my other friends now.

Don't feel bad about choosing option 3 you've been if anything too good a friend to your ex friend. She took you for granted and could never have given the way you did. Be the friend to yourself that you were to her and be at peace x

My mum made me feel really awful - said I shouldn’t have given up on my friend and I should have bided my time before bringing it up again. That “That poor woman and those 2 girls are stuck with that vile man and you’re doing nothing about it”

Your mum is being utterly ridiculous - what exactly are you meant to "do about it"? go down there and drag her out of the house with a SWAT team? Your friend has already told you to back off so I really dont know what action your mum seems to think you should be taking? You've already helped her with a place to live and offered multiple resources and research and she turned it down.

You have done so much for your friend and as a PP said, it's really not for anyone online to dictate what your boundaries should or should not be, nor is it your mum's decision. Those are yours to decide and yours alone. If your mum feels that strongly about it then there is nothing stopping her contacting your friend and "doing something about it"- whatever that may be.

Yanbu.

The only ones to feel sorry for are those poor girls stuck living in that shitshow.

OP, you did nothing wrong except being naive.
Victims of abuse are such simply because they stay.
A woman who leaves the 1st time her otherwise perfect husband hits her is not a victim of abuse but of assault.
Having a friend who is a victim of abuse is not so different as having a friend who is an addict/alcoholic. You know/they know they should stop but for whatever reason they cant and you get dragged along until they hit rock bottom and your friendship until then is always about them.

My very own brother cut ME off when he decided he didn't like a decision I'd made to give my DH a second chance after an affair. It hurt. So maybe you don't like the choices she's making? So what, they are hers to make. You should still support someone imo even if you don't agree with them. Like I wish my brother didn't cut me off just because I didn't seek a divorce.

Ok. I do not think you were unreasonable. It is incredibly difficult being around someone in this position. I grew up in a household where my parent was the constant victim of verbal abuse and gaslighting. It was horrific. They told me every time it happened that they were leaving. 30 years later and they haven’t left. And every time it flares up they say they can’t take it any more and that they’re going to leave. It is traumatic every time. I endured this for 30 years and listening and sympathising and advising and consoling and every time they go back a part of me dies. It is horrendous. I finally snapped for the first time recently and said it was like watching someone self-harm and I cannot watch them do it anymore and I can’t be a part of it. And this is someone who means more than the world to me. But I have to take a step back because I cannot do it anymore and nor can force them to.

Everyone has a breaking point. She is an adult and you cannot force her to do something she doesn’t want to do but I know firsthand the utter pain of witnessing someone do this to themselves who swears blind they will leave and then the next day they’re back where the started. You can only watch someone do this to themselves for so long before it chips away at you. I do not think you were wrong to block.

I would reach out to her and let her know you will always be there for her if she needs it, but you have to protect your sanity at the same time. Unblock her and let her know, she can reach out anytime.

I had a very close friend, who I and others helped to leave an abusive relationship. We got her and the kids set up in a new place, huge rally round to furnish and get basics in for them. I swear not one month went by and she met another arsehole on Tinder. Within months he was telling her what she could and couldn't do. When I reached out to her to say this really was not what she needed and she needed to slow things down a bit - well I have never seen her again since. I was hurt, but ultimately really worried about her. But I had to step back from this as there was nothing I could realistically do. If she turned up on my doorstop tomorrow I don't know what i would do to be fair. I don't think it's fair of PP to blame you for not doing it better or expecting a better result. None of us are flipping WonderWoman. We do what we can, but its also important to look after our own MH and families. It's tragic but you can't really help people unless they want to be helped.

@Clueless2024 You should still support someone imo even if you don't agree with them.

That's all fine until providing that support becomes detrimental to yourself, as it has to the OP. Then something has to give.

This is very tricky. I can totally understand your frustration at her. I’ve seen friends stay with absolutely vile men and it’s maddening. Even more so when they want to offload to you about it all but then expect you to be nice as pie to their partners.

I think I would have absolutely had to take a step back after she let you down over the rental and accused you of having a vendetta against her dh. I would have told her I don’t want to hear any more about her marriage, no more screenshots or moaning. And I also would say I don’t want to go to her house or socialise with him in any way. But I don’t think I’d have completely cut her off. His aim was to isolate her and you played right into that.

You sound like a good friend but perhaps a bit too invested and that’s why you were so angry when she decided to stay with him. That part sounds like it was more about your feelings than her wellbeing.

But years have passed now. What good is raking it all up again? I suppose if you feel really bad about it you could reach out and try to start the friendship back up again but with boundaries and conditions that mean you don’t have to see or hear about her dh.

FWiw it sounds completely controlling and abusive but as pp have said, people will only change their situations if and when they are ready. She clearly isn’t.

This is very sad. Unfortunately, it's not uncommon. When one friend is in an abusive relationship and doesn't leave over the long term - i.e. the situation goes on for YEARS - it often affects the friendship eventually. I lost my cousin this way. I held my tongue and supported her for a decade, until one day she told me that she was leaving him. I said oh thank god, I've loathed him for years. And then she didn't go through with it, and hasn't wanted anything to do with me ever since. He really hurt her physically, and I ended up telling her family. I could no longer be complicit in domestic violence. Long story short, another ten years have passed and she's still with him, while we are totally estranged and always will be. I tried to make up with her once, and she didn't want to know. Over the past decade, she remained ice-cold and towards me and unconcerned as my parents died and my marriage broke up. So as far as I'm concerned, there's no way back for us, ever.

Witnessing a loved one experience DV when they stay indefinitely is uniquely depressing. I do think you are better off out of it. I am really sorry to have lost my cousin, but ultimately I've concluded I am better off out of it, too. If we were still in touch, I'd have to make nice with her abuser and I'd have another few decades of listening to the vastly upsetting stories of the things he was doing to her, while not being able to say anything in case she turned against me.

She's lost to you, OP. She's lost in a web of DV, and it's tragic, but there is nothing you can do. I will say that as much as I've mourned my cousin and our shared past, I think it's mentally and emotionally healthier for me not to be a witness to this criminal behaviour.

If she ever gets out of it, you might be able to repair things, if you wanted to. I've sometimes wondered what would happen if my cousin's abuser was out of the picture. But until that happens, there is no hope.

I think you were a brilliant friend. I'm so sorry that your friend does not feel able to leave the relationship. But it had become toxic for you. I don't think your mum has quite considered the huge support you have previously given your friend. No one can do that indefinitely. If a friend was addicted to drugs and couldn't give them up, you wouldn't be expected to support them for years on end with no sign of improvement.

To be clear, I have every sympathy for women who don't feel able to make that break. It takes seven times on average for people to leave, because abusers are very cunning and manipulative, and they make sure there is lot of sweetness mixed in with their poison.

However, the fact that she is not to blame doesn't mean that this is a healthy friendship for you.

The situation with my cousin still hurts, but it's more peaceful to be out of it, and I try to cherish the memories and be grateful for what I had with her. It was like having another sister, so I was lucky. I do think the situation is hopeless unless she leaves him. Maybe you can also just be grateful for what you had with her.

Some women never manage to escape their abusers. One of the ways the abusers achieve this is by isolating them so much they have no one to turn to.

It frequently takes women many, many attempts to escape. And the escape is the time they are most at risk of being killed. I'm not surprised your friend hasn't managed it (yet hopefully).

I think it's OK that you did what you needed to do for you at the time.

But it left her with no one. Could you be in online only contact with her now? So at least in an absolute emergency (as in, he's killing her or one of their children) she could contact you?

Whether her behaviour at our last meeting came from the effects of abuse or not, it doesn’t change the fact it wasn’t deeply hurtful. I can’t help my feelings. Id spent a long time putting my feelings and needs to the side because I was aware someone else had it worse, but we all have our limits. And at the time it felt that this was my limit.

But the responsibility you need to take and that I was alluding to, wasn’t for your own feelings. It says something that you thought it was, and perhaps also explains how you’ve got yourself to where you are now.

Nope, I know what you meant. And I said I need to take responsibility for my actions. Although it does smart to consider I have to take responsibility for me trying to genuinely do something nice and caring, when normally “taking responsibility” means owning your fuck ups. I do like to think by helping her I wasn’t fucking up. It only ever felt like the right thing to do, until that day at lunch when I felt silly and humiliated

You need to take responsibility for the fact that you chose to put a lot of time and effort, emotional and practical, into finding solutions for your friend, and then just put it all on her - the one suffering domestic abuse

Because she asked me to. I didn’t force anything on her.

In the situation she was in, giving you a response you would have been happy with may not have been possible. In fact, you found out that it wasn’t.

She absolutely could have given a kinder response, and I would have been much happier.

You need to take responsibility for the fact you chose to do things that you wanted her to deal with in a fashion you approved of, and cut her off when she didn’t do that. That’s not okay. Nobody gets to do that to another person.

I won’t be sorry for not wanting to be attacked for helping her. Yes I do expect friends to do “things in a fashion” if that “fashion” is “not throwing help back in your face, attacking and lying”.

But her reaction absolutely is that of someone who could not accept. Not someone who didn’t want to.

If her reaction was valid then shouldnt mine be too?