To have cut off my friend who stayed in an abusive marriage

[TheIvyRestaurant]

I had a friend, let’s call her Kate - she met a man about 12 years ago and got pregnant very quickly, after 3 months. They decided to make a go of it, and from about mid-way through her pregnancy I noticed his red flag behaviour. Then things got worse when she had the baby and he moved in. They then had another DD about 2 years later and they got married a few years after that. I could give hundreds of examples of how he was emotionally abusive but here are a few:

• Kate was “allowed” to come out for drinks with me (I eventually was her only friend as he alienated her from so many people) but only during the day - she had to be back at 6pm so she could do bedtime as he couldn’t cope apparently. I’m not talking babies - this is when their DDs were 6 and 8. One night we were having so much fun we lost track of time and realised it was 6.15pm. She had 9 texts from him saying she had “failed at her task” and “failed as a parent” because “you know that I can’t do bedtimes so the girls are now going to be up really late thanks to you putting yourself first”.
• She had to go term time only at work because he can’t look after his own children for full days while she works, it triggers his PTSD. Meaning she had a lot less money. He also insisted on keeping their finances seperate, so whilst he stayed full time and would buy £900 TVs and an e scooter, she would have to forgo buying lunch at work because her salary dropped so much.
• During lockdown, things ramped up - he was beyond nasty and would text her from other rooms of the house saying “Tell those kids to STFU before lose my shit at you all” and “Can you put some clothes on, it makes me want to vomit seeing you in pyjamas during the day” and “You’d better be doing home schooling with them, if they’re then out to be thick kids it will be your fault”. He couldn’t home schooling apparently, it triggered his PTAD. She would text me these screenshots on a daily basis.
• One time we went to a local concert, and she decided she’d stay out for a drink after and stand up to him. He wasn’t happy and was demanding she come home but she put her phone in her bag. A few hours later, she checked her phone to find 67 missed calls and the ring doorbell showed paramedics at their door. He called 999 saying he thinks he has sepsis. He didn’t, and they soon left. But he spent months saying the stress she caused by staying out brought on sepsis like symptoms.
• He’d really have a go at her parenting. All the time. She’s an AMAZING mum, but if she didn’t have things 100% organised (like literally every mum on the planet) he’d go nuts. I was round once and he said “The girls want to go in the garden where are their hats?”. Because she didn’t instantly know and had to look in various cupboards and coat pockets, he really went at her saying “Smart mother you are - don’t even know where their clothes are”. I pointed out “Well neither do you” and the look her gave me terrified me to the point I left after that.
• Me and her went away with all our kids to a theme park hotel for the night and he was texting her having a go about her parenting - the kids weren’t even there! He’s obsessed with her “failing”. “I gave you a new routine and you failed at it. You left the house 15 minutes after we agreed. FAILED”.
• Her DDs eventually started treating her like shit. If they wanted her from another room they’d shout “Kate! Get here RIGHT NOW”. She said it’s because that’s how her DH speaks to her and they were copying

I spent a lot of personal time and energy worrying about my friend. I told her from early on to leave him, not to marry him, that’s she can do better and she’s a shell of her former self. Eventually, after another text simply saying “Guess what your latest fail has been? Go on take a guess.” (she forgot to turn the dishwasher on and he had nothing to eat his food on which apparently triggered his PTSD) she told me she wants to leave him. I supported her for the next 3 months. I did all sorts - looked around rentals on her behalf (he was NEVER gonna leave the house of his own accord and she didn’t want police involvement). Researched cheap items to but for a new kitchen. Researched women’s groups and charities that support single mums. Spent hours pouring over her rights and how to claim maintenance and the pitfalls she might encounter. Researching the cheapest forms of divorce. None of this she could do herself in case he checked her phone or caught her.

I did it to the detriment of spending time with my own kids and DH. My DH at this point was supportive but said i was too involved and it’s not my job, and pointed out my friend would post “we are such a happy family” type posts on social media and he assured me “she’s never gonna leave him you’re wasting your time”. We once fell out about it. But I persevered and was determined to get her out of there.

My uncle is a landlord and I asked him a favour to rent her a 2 bed property for a while at a cheap rate until she could find something more suitable. He agreed, letting down the person he promised it to. I was grateful and my friend was delighted she had a place to escape to.

A week before she was due to move in (she’d signed a tenancy agreement) she asked to meet me for lunch. She told me that I had been encouraging her to leave her husband for too long, pushing her into doing it and she didn’t like it and I was to stop. Because she loved him and wasn’t leaving. I asked her if her DH was making her say these things and she said “no”. I’m not sure if this is true. She said we can still be friends but I have to stop this “vendetta” against her DH.

A few days later, still heartbroken, I decided I’d had enough and her marriage had imposed too much on my own life. With DH’s support I texted her to say I couldn’t be her friend anymore. She had gaslighted me, and taken me for granted and she was on her own. I then blocked her on everything and haven’t seen her since. Luckily my uncle was v understanding and didn’t pursue her for her contractual obligations.

That was 3 years ago. I don’t talk about it because I feel so bruised emotionally from it and I tell people we drifted apart. We then moved away shortly after that (for different reasons) which made the cut-off easier.

Anyway caught up with my mum today and she said “You haven’t spoken about Kate in ages. You used to mention her all the time”. I told her the whole story.

I’ve come away feeling sick with guilt. My mum made me feel really awful - said I shouldn’t have given up on my friend and I should have bided my time before bringing it up again. That “That poor woman and those 2 girls are stuck with that vile man and you’re doing nothing about it”. My mum was in an abusive marriage (albeit a violent one as well) and said “so called friends like me” who bolted when her stories became too much are people she will never forgive or forget. That of you know bad things are happening it’s your obligation to stop them, and I gave up too soon.

FWIW. DH looks now and again on social media and Kate and her DH are still together.

I now feel so guilty and confused and second guessing my decision I was otherwise so sure about for 3 years. Please tell me MN honestly - WIBU to cut Kate off? Should I try and reach out to her? My mum gave me a new perspective and I honestly feel sick with what I did.

Oh god that sounds scary - be wary of him asking her for money. Romance scams are rife ATM

Yes it has been scary because she has opened herself up to him emotionally and friend has said there have been many intimate conversations. Her life has been on hold for three years. He sounds like a wrong un, hasn't asked for money but never wants to face time has never suggested meeting up. It's a really odd situation that my friend is continuing for some unknown reason, well I do know, it's the thrill of feeling that she is wanted by someone handsome and intelligent... but the man she speaks to is not the man in the photos. I don't think we will ever know who the man she has been speaking to is. All I know is that I can't be party to it anymore it is depressing and exhausting and I'm done x

I had a friend like this her husband cheated on her while she was pregnant with twins. Think he cheated before that really. She started treating me like he was treating her. She banked on my good nature I called her out on it. She comes from a dysfunctional family herself so for her this was normal. For me it was causing nearly panic attacks. They are still together & project this facade of success. Not sure I would ever trust him again, he was so blasé about it, at the time she had 3 under 1 the house was like a building site & he wouldn’t let her turn a heater on. I could never understand why she stayed. He alienated her from all her friends. I have never spoke to her since & feel no guilt. She chose that life.

God, this is awful. I don't think I could ever have gone back after that lunch either, OP. I think that cutting her off was the appropriate action after Kate blamed you and gaslit you like that. If she was wearing a wire, she would have found a way to tell you that.

It sounds like projection to me. I think that's what happened with my cousin, too. She also turned against me after I tried to help her. Much easier to shoot the messenger than deal with the real problem.

It's a lost cause, OP. You did everything you could. Your mum will have a very different emotional response, because of what she went through. She doesn't know what it's like to stand by for YEARS AND YEARS and be a witness to the abuse and try your hardest to help and then to be thrown face-down in the dirt for it. She knows what it's like to be a victim, not a bystander. I wouldn't place too much importance on what your mum said; just accept that you're coming from very different places.

In the parts of your friendship that related to her abusive marriage, you were not equals. You could not be expected to be held to the same standards.

I’m not excusing your friend’s complete lack of grace when presented with the solutions you’d found for them. I’m trying to (perhaps, who knows) explain them. I’m saying she did not benefit from the kind of freedom to behave well that you did. It’s not a competition. It’s a description of the status as it was then.

It’s up to you to decide if your feelings are as valid as hers. Nobody can give or deny you permission! Your friendship, her situation, your life were all way more complicated than can ever be put into a MN thread, only you know what the situation was. But the fact you’re asking, 3 years on, suggests you’re not sure.

Do you feel inclined to open up a relationship with her again? On terms and with boundaries that you’re comfortable with? It would have to be NOT with a view to only cleansing your conscience (if you do have any feelings of guilt, that is). Would that help you or would you rather run 100 miles in the opposite direction?

Some people here are projecting, just like your mum. Your friend abused your generosity. Yes, abused. Just because someone is in an abusive relationship, it doesn't mean they are incapable of being wrong and have no responsibility for their actions.
You were right to remove yourself from the situation. You don't have to put up with people's shit just because they are in an abusive relationship or continuously make terrible decisions. You went above and beyond to help. Well done for realising your limit and putting yourself and your family first.

I think your mother is being very selfish - as far as I can see you have not cut off a friendship, you have taken a step back from someone who is making terrible decisions, whatever the reasons for it. You need to protect yourself. And your mum owes you an apology.

You were an amazing friend.

God, I wish I'd had a friend like you in my dark days.

But you have done what you can.

You can't be friends and let her send the screenshots of all the hate he gives her day in day out.

What are you supposed to do in response to that?

You did the right thing. Retreating. Protecting yourself. After everything you tried. You went far more above board than most people would.

If your mum is so worried then she should step in herself.

What are you supposed to do in response to that?

Exactly- there is nothing the OP can do in this scenario- if she says nothing about his vile texts she's in the wrong and not "doing anything about it", if she supports friend to leave and agrees he's being out of order then she gets "why have you got a vendetta against my husband"?

OP is in an impossible scenario here where literally whatever she does is wrong.

In the parts of your friendship that related to her abusive marriage, you were not equals. You could not be expected to be held to the same standards

I was going through things as well. During these 8 years, that included a dead parent (who died in a really horrific violent and unexpected way, and me being the next of kin meant I had to deal with the clean up - literally and figuratively), a child diagnosed with a chronic condition and sexual harassment at work, which ended up in a false allegation against me after I whistle blew (a big reason why we moved).

These almost never got discussed between me and my friend - something I didn’t especially realise at the time but I do now.

So I disagree that she got to behave differently in the friendship and that the standards are different. I’m not a robot or an emotional punching bag, I have needs in a friendship too, and feelings, and my own trauma to process. I didn’t need in my life to be made to feel the way I did that day, and it’s not ok because she was a DV victim.

Do you feel inclined to open up a relationship with her again? On terms and with boundaries that you’re comfortable with? It would have to be NOT with a view to only cleansing your conscience (if you do have any feelings of guilt, that is). Would that help you or would you rather run 100 miles in the opposite direction?

TBH I don’t really feel like telling you that answer - you’ve been quite harsh with me and even that question is loaded with a bit of passive aggression.

This is really only of interest here because it explains your own attitude towards your friend - who is the real subject of this thread, not your mum.

Can you explain what you mean by my attitude to my friend please?

Abused women have so much to weigh up when thinking of leaving:

• will the children be upset at losing Daddy?
• will he call social services on me as he keeps threatening (esp if they have any MH problems)?
• will he try and kill me like he’s threatened? (Statistically the most dangerous time for a victim is when or just after she leaves)
• how will I survive financially?
• will I cope (having been told for years she can’t cope with anything/ is stupid/ useless)?

and there are many more….

Eh? WTF does that mean? Victims cant be assholes? OP does not have to deplete herself for a person who only takes and does not give. And people need to understand that there are people in bad, controlling relationships who choose to stay - for the lifestyle, house, etc. In that case, it is not incumbent on everyone around them to provide them with endless support for their poor decisions. Abuse is a continuum, and while there are people who are in danger if they leave, there are others who could takes steps and do not. OP has done exactly the right thing.

Which is why she had a plan to leave when he was at work - including removing the Ring battery - and I had resources lined up to help her with the impact of a separation.

It seens to me you are potentially duplicating your relationship with your nother with that of your friend. You say that your mother was in a similar relationship and it would seem to me thqt this would have made you feel incredibly powerless as a child/young person. In your relationship with your friend is it possible you feel slightly more empowered ? It may be worth considering getting some counselling to address the impact of your mothers' choices on you as q child/young person.
That aside, you have gone over abd well above to the detriment of your own well being and relationships. Which isnt healthy and to the extent you are becoming easy to blame. Im not sure the relationship with your friend is salvagable, even if you do want this. I disagree with your mothers' view, you are not responsible for your friends choices think about what you want. There is no shame should you decide not to proceed further down thqt path

yes janfeb….
but if they left at the 1st sign of trouble none of your points, as valid as they, are would be relevant as the relationship would have ended before it had even started.

I agree @kanaka and I think it’s abit shocking that her friend ignored the fact that the OP arranged a low rent property for her, it could’ve had legal consequences not to mention damaging the OP’s relationship with her uncle who owned the property. She clearly doesn’t give a toss about the OP.

I think that you had no choice but to protect yourself from her tbh. Obviously it would be good if she extricates herself from her relationship, but it doesn’t give her the right to gaslight you.

@Wherearemymarbles sometimes the “first sign of trouble” is much much less easy to spot than an assault. And can come in the disguise of “caring so much about you”

I’m sorry you feel my contributions to your thread have been harsh. I certainly don’t have any harsh feelings! These situations are so complicated, and so difficult to judge, there’s no room really to be harsh to anyone or about any of it. Grace and forgiveness aren’t too much to ask of anyone either, on both sides.

And you certainly don’t owe anyone any answers, including me :) No aggression from me, passive or not. I’m not affected or vested enough to have thoughts that strong about this!

Good luck with whatever you decide. As I’ve got older, so my friendships have become increasingly important to me, especially ones of longstanding. They can be really precious.

And to the poster who said “if she’d have been wearing a wire she’d have let you know somehow”.
Possibly. Possibly not, esp not if she was living in fear of him and he’d said he would follow her/ have a staff member keep an eye on their table / “know” if she gave the game away.
Yes it may sound crazy but this can be life with an abuser.

you can still be her friend, you don’t need to have all these plans & constantly encourage her to leave him. She will leave by herself & for herself & her children eventually. But it has to be her decision, she has been psychologically programmed by her abuser to trust him and only him. I know it’s hard to see it from the other side, and you were an amazing friend. Best advice is to just be there for her when she needs you.

I think you have to put your own well-being first. You can only support someone else if you’re first strong enough in yourself and have courage .

It’s fine for your mum to say that you should have stood by your friend BUT you can only do that if you’re resilient enough for the long game.

I'd have done the same as you OP. It's not that she didn't leave. Or even that she could have caused bad feeling between you and your uncle. It was the point she accused you if having a vendetta against her H, the man she was always bitching about and who was treating her appallingly. That's the bit that would have made me say goodbye.

As for all those saying couldn't OP have stayed friends and backed off unless her friend asked her for help, that was exactly what happened this time! OP did nothing except listen and sympathise and point out her friend didn't have to put up with this behaviour, up until the point her friend contacted OP and said she wanted to leave him.

It was a toxic friendship OP. You were her emotional dumping ground, she was using you and you putting up with that was enabling her to remain in an abusive marriage. You weren't helping her or yourself. Getting yourself out if that situation was the right thing to do.

Your mum is wrong to have guilt tripped you. You never did have responsibility for your friend's situation. Just as her friends never held responsibility for her. It wasn't your mum's friend's jobs to stick around listening to distressing stories of DA and risk ruining their own mental health, just because your mum didn't want to face taking responsibility for herself. We all are responsible for our own lives.

As a friend, you were responsible for nothing more than helping your friend when she asked for help. This you did, going above and beyond, risking your own family relationships in the process. She threw it all back in your face with her vendetta accusation. You owe her nothing now. She was the one that killed the friendship, not you. If she'd said thanks for all your help but I just can't do it and I'd rather not talk about it again, that would be a different matter, but she didn't. She can't treat another person like she treated you and still expect that person to be friends with her.

That is astoundingly ignorant on every level.

1. The first hit is still abuse.
2. The first hit is rarely the first element of abuse; it is usually vastly more subtle than that and builds up over time.
3. Women stay for many reasons, often because they are in more immediate danger leaving. Here are the thoughts that go through some people's minds when they weigh the risk of staying against the risk of leaving -

• he has people watching me when he leaves, to check what I'm up to. How can I mislead them all and get me and my children away safely without any of the watchers realising?
• where can I go when I have no money?
• where can I go where he will not find me and kill me?
• will he kill me in front of the children when he finds us?
• how can I get a job when he keeps showing up and causing a scene to deliberately get me fired?
• how can I stop him kidnapping our daughter and selling her to sex traffickers?
• he has convinced the children he is wonderful and they won't come with me willingly. How can I leave them to a life of what will eventually become abuse?
• he only hurts me but has so far left the children alone. Given my limited resources, staying is a better option that us living on the street.
• he has isolated me from friends and family and I have no one to turn to.
• he doesn't allow me access to the phone or internet and I can't go anywhere unaccompanied
• he has convinced the children to spy on me and report back my every move. How can I get help?