Mum of girls (Caitlin Moran) telling us mums of boys how to speak to our sons

[Suitablefor]

Thanks 🤔

Andrew Tate is not white.

I don’t think male violence is a race issue.

It’s a male issue.

So a claim, made by a guest on a podcast show (Triggernometry to boot) with no reference to the data source, nor a link to the data sourcein the show notes. By a man who thinks there is a distinction between redpill ideology, the blackpill Andrew Tate (all part of the manosphere, all contributing to the misogyny that harms women and girls.)

Do better. It sounds like it appeals to your own prejudices so you stopped there. This is not “a credible link to data” but thank you sharing your source so I can treat it with the credibility it deserves (none.)

I completely agree, we can all look at those pasty, overweight boys in Fortnite hoodies and recognise it is poor parenting.

Yet the OP would value advice from their parents more highly just because they sons. Ridiculous!

She hasn't said loads, presumably to protect their privacy. She did say recently that one daughter was trying to organise a school year book and requested people send her photos for it. The boys almost exclusively sent her dick pics and links/videos/images of porn.

I did not say he was? He is white and black (although with a birracial father and white mother he is technically more white than anything else.)

What does this have to do with the topic of male violence towards women and girls? Do you think Andrew Tate is THE manosphere?

Yes it’s a male issue. You were the one trying to derail from that.

????????

It’s a comment on your first bullet point.

Why are you so abrasive?

This is a conversation. Not an argument.

I would say mothers of daughters are far more invested in stopping boys growing up as dangerous men than mothers of sons

utter nonsense

I don’t want my sons to grow up as rapists any more than mums of daughters want their daughters to be raped, and have raised them accordingly

Your experience of being a mother to boys is very limited compared to having grown up as a boy. And, while Moran hasn't raised boys herself, I'm guessing that she has talked to more experts about raising boys than you have. Ultimately both you and her are talking from positions of limited experience albeit from different directions. You only really know about raising your boys. She only knows what experts have told her about raising boys as a group.

Based on the few hundred words that she was commissioned to write (rather than dismissing her out of hand just because of the sex of the children she gave birth to and/or her opinions on the whole trans thing) I'd say she's got at least as good credentials as you have.

I found him credible and convincing. He has a doctorate in the subject which is presumably more than you or I.

But I don't seek to try and persuade you of anything of course. You may.well be a 15 year old boy yourself!

Oh for goodness sake. I've had YEARS of people missing the loo and tiddling up the wall!! Or floor. I bet Caitlin doesn't even get.close!!!!

Well, parents often get it wrong and lots of parents are shit bags. Also lots of boys with dads listen to Andre Tate because their dad does.

Just making a boy doesn't mean you are going to do a good job of raising them. Lots of children would do better with a psychiatrist raising them instead of their own parents.

Oh wow! You've had piss on your floor for years!? You clearly know more than anyone else how to break the misogyny streak in society then!

Nobody is being abrasive. That’s how you choose to read things.

My first bullet point made no mention of AT’s ethnic ancestry so I have no idea why you felt the need to raise it?

If you look at polling on Tate for example, the evidence shows that most young men aren’t influenced by his misogynistic views:

• Only 17% of boys aged 6-15 years have a positive opinion of Andrew Tate, rising to only 23% of 13-15 year old boys. That means 83% (or 77% of 13-15 year olds) don’t have a positive opinion.

• Only 12% of boys aged 6-15 years agree with Tate’s views on women, compared to 17% of his views on masculinity and what it means to be a man, and 20% for his views on work and success.

• More boys disagree with Tate’s views on women than agree – 31% of all 6-15 year old boys, rising to 56% among 13-15 year olds (with the bulk of the rest either unaware of Tate in general or his views on women specifically).

https://yougov.co.uk/society/articles/47419-one-in-six-boys-aged-6-15-have-a-positive-view-of-andrew-tate

I'm a mother of one girl, no boys. I have been a female child around male children, a female teenager around male teenagers, and a woman amongst men. I think it's absolute horseshit to say that a mother of girls has no right to a view about how to parent boys. There's nothing feminist about that viewpoint. Do you think we've never met any boys? Do you think we don't see them around our girls and hear about how they behave, good and bad, in relation to them? Do you seriously think that the son you know is the same person as the teen that the girls around him know? Because I constantly have in mind that my daughter is a whole person, not just a daughter, and I can't know all the parts of her unless I listen to the people who relate to her in ways that I don't and can't.

Yep. I have seen that survey says.

I have also seen the femicide stats and the feedback from schools who are dealing with increasing misogyny.

The mistake is in thinking AT is the manopshere. He is only one very small part of it.

There was a fantastic (now defunct) website called “We Hunted The Mammoth” which did a great job cataloguing the sheer number of spaces online dedicated to misogyny. It’s been an issue for years that we only seem to want to acknowledge now. Better late than never.

But you don’t raise boys as a group do you? You raise them as individuals, unless you’re Fagan.

And given she shied away from differentiating between boys and girls to appease the TRAs, you’d be a fool to think she’s magically realised the difference when there’s a bandwagon to jump on and some cash to make.

Well if you also thought you could give advice to millions (or however many are on MN) about your skills and knowledge of raising boys I would question your view TBF.

Looking at this thread it seems a lot of mothers of boys think Caitlin Moran is ridiculous and mothers of girls/no kids seem to love her contribution. So that's an extremely useful result in assisting the parents of boys.🤣

Spot on. That's exactly it!

Having a “doctorate on a subject” is not the same as a link to a credible source.

All the podcasts I listen to that I find to be “credible” on a range of topics always give a detailed breakdown in either the show notes or actually referencing their source as they speak which allows me to go and reference their data. As he made mistakes which even I am aware of (such as his comment about men finding a great pool of women attractive than women do men which ignores short term, vs. long term mating strategies covered in depth by Buss and Schmidt or treating the blackpill and redpill as not a collective part of the manosphere) excuse me if I I don’t accept “Trust Me Bro” as a credible source.

But as I said I just wanted to see the source you were using. Thanks for that but it’s not what I was after.

I'm not a massive fan. I'd rather hear from people who know about child development and raising children, really. I just don't think that it's ridiculous for her to have views on how boys should be raised simply because she doesn't have sons 🤷

@TENSsion apologies you were not the one derailing. Too many “Ts”.

Oh for goodness sake. You've not had YEARS of going through puberty with your main peer group being other boys. You've not had YEARS of being told implicitly or explicitly that if you express any emotions other than anger, happiness or amusement then you're not a real man. You've not had YEARS of being told that men like you don't talk about their feelings unless it's about the football team they follow. You've not had YEARS of knowing that you're expected to make the first move in asking someone out and having to deal with being rejected again and again and again, with your soul being crushed that much more every time. I bet you don't even get close!!!!

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that women don't have a huge amount of pressure and undeniable threats against them. Of course they do. But there's a fuck of a lot more difficulties to growing up as a man than not being very good at aiming in the loo. If it's done anything, what Adolescence has done is to highlight that teenage boys are having a shitty time too and the easy but toxic answers of the red-pill manosphere can be very attractive to a kid who doesn't know where he fits in. Anything, whether that's Moran writing on here or opinion pieces on the BBC or whatever, that can get the conversation going and so hopefully help parents to direct their boys into more healthy views of the world has got to be a good thing for everyone.

So serious..it was just a little joke! Have you not got any boys that go to the loo in your house?

Oh hang on...streak...I missed that! Good one.