Mum of girls (Caitlin Moran) telling us mums of boys how to speak to our sons

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Thanks 🤔

I really need to get better at humour attempts 🤣

No worries lad.

Your first bullet point was specifically about the ethnicity and demographics of his listeners. It’s pertinent to that point to point out his ethnicity.

And yes, you are being abrasive. The “who me? No it’s all in your head” schtick won’t work on me.

She's an irritating harpy.

Exactly that. AT is merely the most publicised example of a sizeable cesspit of misogynists who are specifically targeting their message at young men who are struggling to find their place in the world. It often starts at the likes of Jordan Peterson or Joe Rogan, and ends at Andrew Tate or Milo Yiannopolous.

I’d be much more interested to hear takes from mothers who have raised well adjusted, successful, happy boys.

You really need to get better at trying to justify why you think your very limited experience is somehow superior to someone else's very limited experience.

So in practical terms that's 10s of 1000s of boys and men right?

The trouble is who says they're well adjusted, successful and happy? There are thousands of men who appear like that but have left a trail of sidelined, assaulted, taunted and mentally wounded girls and women in their wake, whether they were intimate partners, daughters, colleagues or those who shared a classroom with them.

Their Mums think they're lovely and doing so well for themselves, too.

I don't have to do anything.

I just find it peculiar that as a.result of a fictional tv show based on a reality that statistically is highly unusual compared to demographics, we are doing down our boys and teaching girls to fear their friends and brothers. And are expected to lap up the words of someone writing an advice article about how to deal with boys based on no qualification or experience. It's ridiculous. And I just find everyone else who thinks it's perfectly reasonable to know all about raising boys despite not having raised boys peculiar. I wouldn't venture my opinion on raising girls as I would.be terrified my lack of experience might encourage someone to rely on crap advice. And I was actually a girl!

The chapter from "What about Men?" that stuck in my memory was when she interviewed a male friend of her daughters about his porn addiction. It was both touching and harrowing to read the effect it had on him.

I'll bet most of the vicious fuckers on this thread didn't even know she'd written a book on boys and men, let alone read it 🙄

IMHO it’d be helpful if the debate about sexism considered the everyday as much as violence, e.g. what percentage of men:

• expect to work part-time (with losses to income/financial independence, pension and careers prospects) when they become fathers

• do equal amounts of housework and life admin, even when their female partner works similar hours in paid or unpaid employment.

Also, why so many young women spend significant amounts of their income on ‘beauty’ products and treatments to appeal to the male gaze (fillers, fake lashes, hair extensions, fake nails, fake boobs) rather than valuing their unique, natural beauty.

Not to mention the influence of online trends like the sexist “I’m looking for a guy in finance, trust fund, 6’5”…” and tradwifes subculture.

"Vicious fuckers". Nice. I think we have a stereotyped aggressive teenage boy posting on this thread...they are all like that, you know.

Don't read it then.

Yeah I’m going to be a bit sceptical of that.

As a mum of boys I didn't mind the article. The advice was OK. I'm really not seeing the issue and it's a bit of a trivial annoyance.

This polling was of boys. Not men. There may be other polls of men.

What it shows is the vast majority of boys don’t agree with Tate’s views on women.

Caitlin Moran is a talentless grifter, and I have no interest in what she thinks about anything. I don’t read her articles, ever. I’d rather Mumsnet commissioned some experts with experience in child development / psychology.

I also rolled my eyes at that.

😂😂😂😂

Are you for real?

Yes I agree MN can afford to pay professionals who have a much better understanding to give advice

I actually just googled it to try and find out exactly what she said and it was an extremely vague, offhand anecdote.

And when you take away those that don't agree your left with tens of thousands of boys that do agree yes?

I'm just going by the 17% of boys stat you posted, which you seem to think is insignificant, and pointing out that's a fucking hell of a lot of people growing up to be arseholes

I'm not saying the problem doesn't exist ( of course it does) but of that 17% you have teenage boys who will say they agree and will then grow out of it as they mature, and the tendency of some boys to be cheeky goady little fuckers who will say stupid things for a laugh. Just because people say things in surveys when they are teenagers doesn't mean they either don't grow out of it or are just saying things for effect.

I take your point about the numbers. But my point is about proportions. Only 12% agree with his views on women. That means 88% don’t. The vast majority.

And it doesn’t mean even they will grow up as assholes. Lots of people don’t have the same views as mature adults as they do as teenagers.

It’s important to have perspective and proportionality. Since Adolescence was first broadcast, IMHO there’s been lots of hand-wringing about a crisis among young men: growing misogyny, “the manosphere”, Tate etc.

But there’s very little evidence this is a significant problem. The vast majority of young men aren’t misogynists or incels. They’re not being ‘groomed’ online by misogynists. They’re playing FIFA and Assassins Creed, watching The Sidemen etc.

The vast majority of teen murder victims are young men, not young women. (87% of 16-24 year old murder victims). Most murder victims overall (73%) are men. Of course, it’s still male violence. But largely towards men. Young men are also three times more likely to take their own life than young women.

Looking at statistics, parents should be far more worried about their sons’ safety than their daughters’.

And there’s also sexism among young women, e.g. obsession with looks etc.