He invaded my space/was creepy. I feel angry - even days afterwards.

[septembernights]

Hi,

I was debating posting this, but I can't keep it in any longer and feel like I need a safe space to vent/question if I am being unreasonable.

The other day, after visiting my goddaughter, I had some time to kill - before heading out for dinner. I went to a hotel bar as I was in the city. It's a bar I've been going to for 20+ years. I had my work bag (thinking I was going to head to the office once free) but because dinner was nearby to where my goddaughter and her mother were - I decided to work at the bar. It's a lovely establishment, not loud etc... I also had a book in my bag.

I get to the bar and immediately 'feel' a man opposite staring at me. I shook it off and got my laptop/book out. Still, I could feel him staring. He then looked like he was leaving - great! He ended up coming over to me, saying hello - and asking if I could watch his stuff for him... except his stuff was on the other side of the bar...? I said 'I'm sure your stuff will be fine - no one is going to steal it!'

He then came back, got his belongings, sat next to me and offered me some chocolates - which was in one of the bags. I politely declined. He didn't relent/move. He acknowledged that he noticed the staff were familiar with me and said this place must be 'my local' - as it was his too. Great(!)

He ordered himself a drink - and offered me one. I said no. He then kept trying to chat - and after some polite interaction and I explained that I had work to do. He apologised and then touched me on my shoulder and in one movement - moved his hands down to mine and apologised again. I recoiled away from him. He must have thought he was being a gentleman in the way he was profusely apologising, but it really didn't feel like that.

I said I was going to move - at which point he proceeded to wrap up/leave. He asked for my number - I said no - and then said: 'Not to worry, since this is your local - I'm sure I'll see you in here again soon, no doubt...' - but he said it with a smile. He told me to 'take care' as he left. I found out he settled my check/bill - which annoyed me. I am capable of buying my own wine. I don't want to 'owe' him anything should I ever see him again.

It has been a few days now and I am mad - as in really angry. I'm angry that I wasn't stronger - even though he didn't do anything so awful. I feel like I can't go back to my place again. The older I get, the less patience I have. I wish I had the guts to speak up more and could have told him to F off. I'm tired of being 'nice' for fear of a man getting angry/violent.

Sorry if this is nonsensical - I'm just angry and raging. I'm getting my period next week, so maybe I am PMS-ing. But AIBU to feel angry days later? Why didn't I speak up? Why didn't I just move from the outset?

Please no abusive comments. I think I am just sensitive at the moment. :(

We are conditioned to be polite. You have no reason to be polite, so don't be. If he turns up again, firstly immediately produce the price of the wine in cash (have it ready just in case) and put it in front of him. Say, "I don't know why you paid for my drink, but here is the money back. Now please go away and leave me alone." If he blusters and persists, do not speak to him at all, but go straight to the bar, and say LOUDLY to the barman "This man is harassing me, do you have security here?" These complete arseholes only respond to blatant rudeness, every polite response is a green light for them to go on pestering you.

RTFT and you will know that your made up scenario is not what I was talking about.

I did and it is. She didn’t have anything happen to her. She felt he was a creep. But she chatted to him and he didn’t ACTUALLY do anything wrong.

I can't believe I've just read that.

This is difficult to read, mainly for your standards.
You've previously said you don't have any responsibility for the safety of your clientele, to be followed by yes, you have a duty (it's a duty of care) I've read your posts and am disappointed, however very glad my DS &DD will be able to advocate for themselves in the same circumstances, when you have made it perfectly clear you won't/cannot.

I do think it’s a v difficult area for bar manager /staff to intervene. I think we’re all agreeing on the underlying feeling of threat we re made to feel when there are not overt signs of harassment that prevent us from being able to escalate it. If perhaps this guy refused to leave OP alone the manager would have more clear grounds to ask him to leave or at least leave her alone. But how safe does she feel about leaving alone? Having publicly humiliated/rebuffed him will he be waiting for her /follow her home /onto transport? How do we know if this a cocky arrogant water of a duck’s back kind of man who hits on women daily or someone less resilient & dangerous? The manosphere manual actively teaches shows of dominance, owning of territory & what us women call harassment levels of attention disguised as acceptable ways of meeting women in person. It’s a minefield.

Well yes, the license holder is obliged to hire the staff necessary to deal with bad behaviour. Though I will say bar staff have been dealing with this for a lot less money for a long, long time. If the hotel want to pay their staff so little they aren’t prepared to ask them to do the job they need them to, that’s definitely a problem at odds with how drinking establishments are supposed to be allowed to operate in the UK.

This is not something women should have to deal with. Pushing up prices and closing bars is preferable to having spaces where men drink and then harass women.

DD has a man slap her bum in a bar. She told the bouncers, who found him, checked kicked him out and banned him from the venue after they forced him to apologise. They offered to hold him if she wanted to call the police, but she declined

UPDATE

I posted here about 2 weeks ago. I am the OP of this thread. I left the thread feeling supported (gratefully so) yet also disheartened at some (albeit very few) of the responses I received. I felt compelled to give an update given what transpired a few days ago/earlier this week.

I ended up going back to my hotel bar - my ‘local’ as per my OP. This time with my (female) friend. The man I referred to in my OP was there. I ignored him and was pleased to have my friend with me and to be able to enjoy the glorious weather. About 20 mins in, he attempted to send a drink over to me and my friend via the bartender. My friend was already aware of what had happened before. We politely declined the drink said to the bartender we ‘were (kindly) not wanting to accept drinks’. The bartender was very polite, understanding and completely ‘aware’ that no drinks were to be sent over nor paid for by someone else etc…

I soon after (in more detail) told the bartender and his colleague (who know me) that he had bothered me once before - not in a dramatic kind of way. I mentioned that was annoying/persistent/creepy - but I still maintained that I wasn’t out to ‘cause trouble’. I asked them to just ‘be aware’. Before anyone asks, no I didn’t expect them to ‘take care of it’ like something out of an action/Hollywood movie - or do something drastic like call the police - that would be ridiculous. Also, I could feel/see the man staring at me while I was talking to the bartender, so I kept it as brief as possible whilst still having a smile on my face.

Frankly, I wanted to be immersed in conversation with my friend above all else, who I hadn’t seen in months.

He left about 45 mins later. The bar manager (not to be confused with the bartender) came over to me afterwards (who also knows me) and said ‘measures could be taken’ if needed as they wouldn’t tolerate any ‘unwelcome behaviour on their premises’. I repeated that it was more that I just wanted it ‘noted’ and that he shouldn’t be allowed to harass anyone (not necessarily me - but anyone!)

Also @Devonshiregal I was not the person who said bar staff should have intervened in my OP. Someone else said that in this thread (actually many people did) - and the thread took a different turn as a result.

About an hour after that, my friend left. Her Uber arrived at the bar entrance to the hotel (which is the side entrance) - and mine arrived at the front entrance by the lobby. I hugged her and proceeded to leave.

I left the hotel and started walking down the steps towards the street/to find my Uber. The doorman had opened the door at the top of the steps. The Uber wasn’t directly outside the entrance, but not far off. Just before I found/reached my Uber, the man in question jogged towards my Uber (from behind and then around) and gestured that he was to open the door. He actually grabbed the handle before I did! I was shocked to see him still near the premises as he had left over an hour prior. Almost two hours earlier, rather.

I yelped/screamed and jumped backwards. I didn’t register it was him at first to be honest - and thought I was being mugged for my bag/iPhone!! Then I thought I had perhaps approached someone else’s Uber - despite checking the plate first.

He had his other hand on my back almost guiding me towards the car seat. I wriggled out fast enough.

The doorman (and another colleague) came down the steps and loudly blew a whistle (that I didn’t even know they had!) I ran to them and shouted: “GO AWAY!!” to the man. The car door was still open. He just stared at me and gave me this almost evil smile before being a bit more ‘alert’ - and once again - like last time - profusely ‘faux apologising’ once the two staff members could have potentially been aware of anything untoward happening. He claimed he was only trying to ‘open the car door for me’. Things were a bit frantic after that. I informed the doorman and his colleague of what had happened within the hotel and that I felt like he was waiting outside for me. I say that not to sound arrogant, but I believe he was angry at me/the bartender/the hotel etc…

I spoke to the hotel today. The bar manager called me back and pretty much said what I thought he’d say. He said the man likely got defensive about his drinks being rebuffed - and knew that he couldn’t misbehave on hotel premises - hence hanging around. I suspect because the bartender didn’t ‘try harder’ for us to accept the drinks (which he didn’t need to!) - he got angry and hung around the entrance. I asked if there had been any ‘history’ with him - and the manager said ‘no’ but that he was a semi-regular and always alone. He also said one incident was enough though and that he wouldn’t be allowed back on the premises. Whether that holds weight or not, I do not know. The bar manager said he - and the hotel manager too - had checked the CCTV both inside/outside of the hotel. Granted, this only stretched to the street outside. The man did leave the hotel when I thought he did. He left at 7:19pm. I left at 9:10pm. So it wasn’t like he moved to a different bar within the hotel and we happened to leave at the same time.

I believe I dodged a very creepy and dangerous man - and am further convinced that I was not overreacting last time (see OP).

—

For those (women, mind you) who told me to ‘get a grip’ (see comments) and said that I needed to ‘move on’ etc… upon the initial incident (see my OP), I hope you are ashamed of yourselves - and I hope you never experienced what I did. Granted, the initial encounter wasn’t the worst thing in the world (which I acknowledged in my OP) - but it also wasn’t ‘nothing’.

Whilst no one on this thread was actually there with me - both at the time of me posting initially - and earlier this week - and whilst I perhaps I didn’t convey the depths of my uncomfortableness in my OP - his last comment about ‘knowing he’d see me again’ was what set me off and unnerved me most - and sure enough, look what happened.

To be clear, it wasn’t a ‘working day’ when I was there in my OP yet some said I was ‘unprofessional’ by ‘working out of a bar’ (which I wasn’t doing). I had every right to check emails/respond - but I was not using the bar as my office - and even if I was working out of the bar - it doesn’t excuse his behaviour. I had also brought my book too to read (see OP). Some people’s logic is extremely flawed.

—

To those that understood/empathised with me - thank you.

To those who have had similar/worse experiences - I’m so very sorry you had to experience such a thing. Trust your instincts. They could save your life. (Before anyone jumps at me for potentially being a ‘drama queen’ - no, I’m not implying I could have been killed this week…! I’m simply informing women to trust themselves and their gut).

Thank you for the update OP. That sounds terrifying. I'm so glad you're OK. You were right to trust your gut instincts.

Why would that enter someone’s head? I don’t understand, she wasn’t standing on a street corner!

They can definitely chuck someone out for making a customer uncomfortable, most places would do this in a heartbeat if asked.

Only on Mumsnet - woman in a bar having a quiet drink (with or without laptop) = hooker. It’s like the 1950s here sometimes.

Jesus OP - thank god you’re ok. This is the problem & why so many of us freeze or fawn b’cos to do otherwise risks escalation. Gr8 the hotel bar staff were so proactive. We shouldn’t need bloody chaperones to enjoy places safely but creeps like him make it feel like we should.

Oh my god... at the update. OP, I am so glad you are ok and that the staff helped.

I know you shouldn't have to avoid the place, but honestly if I were you, I would, for now. He sounds like he has the potential to become a stalker. It's not worth it.

It makes me angry to even write that, as no way should you have to avoid your bar.

@Miyagi99because it’s not unusual for sex workers to use hotel bars.

I'm so sorry you had to go through this further incident, @septembernights , but I'm not surprised he showed up again and I doubt you are either. Would you consider asking the bar for a CCTV image so you can report to the police, or ask them to save some images and stills so that the police can request them if you file a complaint. As I said previously, this man is a practised predator. Please be extra careful about your safety and security as he sounds angry and determined.

Hi. Thank you for your message. Yes, I think it's time to give the place a wide berth. A shame as I've been going there for so long.

Hi,

Thank you for your message. We got the CCTV footage (I had a copy emailed to me). Stills were harder to capture - but he's been banned from the premises. He was seen pacing the street for approximately 2 hours. Crazy stuff.

Pathetic little incel.

Definitely report to the police OP - he tried to push you into a car. He is a dangerous psychopath. When you said in your opening post he offered you some chocolates he had, I did think that seemed a random thing for him to bring to a bar, and wondered if the chocolates contained date rape drugs.

Jeez, I'm so glad the bar/hotel staff are helping you with this. Definitely report to the police if you feel able to - no doubt he'll try again with other women. Police will be able to trace him from card payments.

This is why the ignorant bitches on here who like handmaidens tried to gaslight the OP and doubt her own instincts are, well, ignorant vile bitches. Women know. That man sounds incredibly dangerous, OP. Please be careful.

Very scary and you are indeed owed an apology by a couple of flippant and dismissive people on this thread.

Please do report it. Whenever I have read about a prosecution of a sex offender, they always seem to have behaved this way to more than one woman. But your own experience certainly justifies calling the police in itself.